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December 4th 2021 Eclipse and "The Eagle and The Lark"

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Ramin
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(@ramin)
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Hi @ernst

Hi All

At 7: 34: 38 UT December 4th 2021 a Solar eclipse will happen. According to the book "The Eagle and the Lark" the solar eclipse belongs to Saros cycle 5 New South which Starts: July 14, 1787, 2314 GMT South Pole.(Page 370-371).

To Understand an Eclipse we need to interpret the chart for the beginning of the cycle, which has been interpreted in the book. The point is that there was no eclipse on July 14 1787.

According to NASA the Dec. 4th eclipse belongs to 152nd Saros Cycle Starting July 26th 1805.

( https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEsaros/SEsaroscat.html , https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEsaros/SEsaros152.html )

Also there is no record of any eclipse happening on July 14, 1787. 

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_eclipses_in_the_18th_century )

Wikipedia not being a reliable source I also checked NASA's eclipse lists and Star positions Calculated by Starry Night Pro Plus Version 6, which you can find a view of the sky from Mexico on July 14 1787 attached.

Since @ernst mentioned this book on a video more than a year ago 4 eclipses have happened which the book has miscalculated the beginning of the cycle for 2 of them.

(See my previous post on the subject : https://astrology-videos.com/forum/rahu-ketu/eclipses-2/paged/2#post-5404 )

I think these miscalculations occur because it's hard to calculate the position of the Nodes. For example on July 14 1787 Starry Night shows that Ketu is around 28 Gemini while Kala calculates it around 5 degrees cancer.

Calculation of the nodes is a complex matter maybe for an other discussion. The point is that the calculations and as a result interpretations of "the Eagle and the Lark" are not reliable at all. Unless I've been mistaking and some one will be kind enough to point out my mistakes.

Thanks

 

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Ernst Wilhelm
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Yes, i noticed that as well. I am about to hit the road again and so I cant look into this at the moment. Calculate the chart for 1787 and see if it is actually an eclipse or not. 

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Ramin
(@ramin)
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Dear @ernst

I've calculated the chart for July 14 1787. If Ketu is calculated correctly it must be an eclipse;

But Starry night shows no eclipse for the same date, and shows Ketu around 28 degrees of Gemini rather than 4 to 5  degrees of Cancer. I've attached the chart calculated for Greenwich, UK. Compare to Starry Night Screen attached above. (Starry Night Picture is around the same time from Mexico to have the eclipse above the Horizon. I've also tried to see the eclipse from south pole using starry night with no success)

Is the position of the nodes dependent to the place of the observer on Earth? (the Change in latitude)

 

Have a Safe Journey

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Ramin
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Well the Sun (which is the ecliptic) is 150 million Kilometers away while the moon is around 400 thousand kilometers away (whish is the moons orbit) from the south pole to the north pole we go from around 6000 kilometers from below the ecliptic plane to above the ecliptic plane.

So the position of the nodes which rely on the view point of the observer will change if we simply consider geometry. also the fact that solar eclipses are seen from certain latitudes confirms this.

So Rahu and Ketu positions may very well depend on the latitude of the observer as well.

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Ramin
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At this point I'm sure that the where about of the conjunction point of moon orbit and sun orbit (the ecliptic) depends on the latitude of the observer. I'll enplane this under the Astronomy Topic.

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Ernst Wilhelm
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Most software do not give accurate planetary posititions for older dates. the only reliable engine for that is the swiss ephemeris which is what we use in kala. So I don't think you can trust the starry nights. 

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Ramin
(@ramin)
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Dear @ernst 

Thanks. Even though you may be right about Starry Night Calculation engine, I think the main problem might be me.

To compare planetary positions between Kala and Starry Night first I need to set Starry night to show Planetary positions  from the view point of Earth's center.

Doing so Starry Night shows Ketu to be in the exact position as Kala calculates it using mean node calculation for 14 July 1787.

So let's not tarnish Starry Night's reputation because of my miss calculation.

 

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ChristianK
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Hi Ramin, of course the visibility of an eclipse depends deeply on the place of observation. in the horoscope the values for the planets stay the same, but this does of course not mean, that the picture is the same everywhere.

so an partial eclipse (eclipse-cycles start either on the north or south pole as a partial eclipse) at the south pole pretty sure isn't visible neither in the UK nor in mexico. thats why we eclipse chaser fly around the world to spot eclipses.

with Kala I get the same values as you, (for 90S00 and 00E00). the eclipse limit is 17°. Sun is at 22:17 Ketu with 5:11 is at the border of this limit. so the eclipse would have been pretty brief (maybe only a few seconds). the moon hardly only scratched the sun. this is how it is supposed to be at the beginning of an eclipse cycle. It most likely may have gone completely unnoticed for the public (if there is any in 1787 at the south pole in the hour before midnight....... - so thats why there may be no report/observation) 

the starry night picture may be accurate as well. so much further north the visual axises won't match any longer. at the south pole nevertheless there was a brief eclipse.

the naming of 5 New South is the personal naming of bernadette bradey (the author of the book). this never was the naming of NASA for saros-cycles. so no contradiction here.

the eclipse NASA takes as starting point for the eclipse cycle is 18 years and 12 days later, which is exactly a saros period. So my idea is, that bernadette bradey took the astrologically possible first eclipse of this cycle, which wasn't really visible at all, while NASA takes the second eclipse of the cycle, which was the first visible one (Su at 2:47 Leo and Ketu 16:28 Cancer, which gives 13:41°, which is much more within the "orb" of 17°). the NASA eclipse should show up in bradeys list of the 5 New South - does it?

so I don't see any real contradictions here.

christian

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Ramin
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 Hi @christiank and thanks for the explanation.

That's what I figured had happened. If the Saros cycle started in 1787 then that was the first and NASA's eclipse given for start of the Saros  is the second eclipse. The question is that if that very brief eclipse in 1787 has actually occurred. If not, then the interpretation of the whole series will change. for now @ernst suggested to go with NASA calculations.

see :

https://astrology-videos.com/forum/mundane-astrology/eclipse-and-saros-cycles#post-6348

 

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Ramin
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Dear @christiank

I have found some other mistakes in the book "the Eagle and the lark" as well;

Please check on old post of mine on the matter :
https://astrology-videos.com/forum/rahu-ketu/eclipses-2/paged/2#post-5404

This has caused me to double check the calculations for every Saros Cycle I read in the book.

I do understand why Bernadette Bradey has taken the Beginning of this Saros Cycle to be at July 1787, specially because the end of the previous Saros Cycle was on 15 June 1787, but is it ? Did it actually Happen? if not is it important astrologically for the eclipse to be visible at the pole even for a brief moment or not?

these are the questions I have now answer for.

Thank you

 

 

 

 

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