I was wondering about how to read the Bhava points? For example, I have moon in the fourth Rasi. By looking at the fourth Rasi and seeing the moon there, you could predict that I have moved a lot in my life, which would be true, however the 4th Bhava point falls into the third Rasi where I have no planets, and in that case you may miss that simple prediction as the 4th Rasi contains the 5th bhava point. Do you just take both into account, the Rasi and the Bhava? And if you were making predictions about the mother, for example, you would start by looking at the 4th Bhava point even though it is in the 3rd Rasi?
Thanks!
That´s a question all of us have made at some stage and that most of us still ask now and then.
Basically: The Rasis are used for yoga techniques. In that sense your Moon is in your 4th "house". (The word house not being completely clear or relevant to vedic astrology, but we tend to use it anyway, and Ernst uses it too...) How many houses from the Lagna? How many houses from let´s say Saturn? etc...
The Bhava cusps indicates the concrete manifestations in life. So your Moon ir related to concrete 5th-house things like creativity, self-expression and of course children.
It takes time to fully understand the difference; I´ve been study astrology with Ernst for almost a year and can´t say that I´m completely clear about it still.
Mona - I bet she´s going to answer your post, aren´t you Mona? 😉 - uses to say that Ryan Kurzcak, a fellow vedic astrologer and adept of Ernst, makes a difference between inner and outer, meaning that the Bhava cusps indicate external events and the "houses" (Rasis) how we feel about it.
Mattias
My understanding is if you want to know about your relationship to your mother then you read it from the 4th house (4th house from the Ascendant). The house is the relationship to the Ascendant. Your fourth bhava cusp falls in the 3rd Rasi, so if you want to read about the mother then you read it from the 3rd bhava cusp. The cusp is about the concrete aspect of the actual person (your mother), and the house is the relationship to the Ascendant - your relationship to your mother
tuyet
@tuyetv And still the 4th "house" - I mean the 4th Rasi counting from the lagna - has a saying about that, I´d say, telling us about your relationship to, your inner experience of your mother. Or rather your emotional connection to yourself, which is basically the same thing. That´s my understanding. But for all the concrete things: the 4th cusp, yes.
Then of course the mother is also Mars and the Matrikaraka, bu that´s another theme I guess...
Mattias
Just seeing this thread. So yes @meyes I'll attempt to answer it 😉 Actually, you've said it: the whole houses/rasis are key to analyze the yogas (lord of house x in the house x). We don't use cusps for that (at least not from Ernst's teachings unless I've missed something). And, also, how one relates to that house, our relationship to it. How I feel about mom/my relationship to her: 4th house/rasi. How my mom looks like/her personality, 4th cusp (and counting from 4th cusp to "read" her).
I also find cusps important when it comes to transits. That being said, you can apply the same principle: transits through a house will impact your relationship to that house, through a cusp, will be more related to concrete events. And cusps are used a lot with Jaimini techniques from what I gather.
So, it's really about what to use for which technique (yogas/jaimini/transits).
For the general idea, that's the video from Ryan:
(1) Description of Astrology House Cusps in Vedic Astrology - YouTube
I don't know if Ernst agrees or not. At the end of the day, what's important is that you develop an approach that makes sense to you and tests it out. Ryan's approach makes a lot of sense to me, I find it logical and I trust his experience and saying it works well for him.
Hope that helps.
Mona
@mona Thank you, Mona. I appreciate your time and input. I will def take a look at the video by Ryan.
@mona I find this aspect of astrology also the most difficult so far. So we can say the concrete is cusp, the subjective is rasi or full bhava? Then you could say my mom is a really bad person (some bad malefic conjoined 4th cusp), but I love her (good benefic in the 4th rasi from lagna), for a simplified example? ????
@david108 Maybe worth mentioning what a Bhava cusps is. It´s an abstraction, a focus point, something similar to Rahu and Ketu. I just got a funny vision here about a 3D printer; the exact point where something concreting is being manifested (printed...); that´s the bhava cusp. And yes, your example with your mother is very good, it´s exactly like that.
Mattias
@david108 haha, yes that could be;) If that confuses you, you're not alone. So I would simply stick to: what technique are you using?
1. yoga analysis techniques = full houses/rasi
2. psychology of a person = full house/rasi (since the rasi gives you information about how a planet will "behave")
3. Concrete predictions with Jaimini: cusps (I have not studied all of it nor the other predictive techniques).
4. Rahu/Ketu: am still playing with it. The rasi gives such a depth of information that I tend to follow Ernst's recommendation and look at which cusps Rahu/Ketu are the closest to in order to see what kind of experiences they need to play out their rasi axis without completely ignoring the full house it's in. The thing is I haven't seen a lot of charts where rasi and cusp don't match. My own chart is aligned so I also can't speak from experience. To be continued...
Mona
@mona I have my Ketu in the 5th Rasi from the Lagna, conjunct the 6th Bhava cusp. I completely relate to both, and that´s my understanding from the Rahu/Ketu-course, that it´s less defined to a specific Bhava than the physical planets are, it´s more like a tendency in that direction of the chart. More like "5-ish" and "6-ish" with even a hint of 7th and 4th... In my case that is. That would go with the misty nature of Rahu and Ketu, not respecting borders like the karakas, maybe... I´m kind of speculating here, but I remember when I saw the course that I felt Ernst had more a western approach on the theme; not being so limited by the Rasis. Was I wrong?
Mattias
@meyes Thanks for sharing your experience. The problem with the Western approach is that they use different house systems. Traditions (Vedic and Hellenistic) use a whole-house system, Western astrologers use an equal-house system (I believe that's what it's called, taking the cusp as the beginning of the house so some houses can be in 2 signs, am not super familiar with it so I may be off), but then, from what I understand, more and more Western astrologers are using the whole house (at least, there seems to be a lot of debate and reconsidering these days). But, wait, there's more: Campanus/Placidus/Koch/etc..., some astrologers say they use a little bit of both. A head spinner and a bit messy if you ask me. So I just do what Ernst does ???? (Whole house + Campanus) and try to keep it as simple as possible.
I understand the signs as the work that needs to be done/developed (at least, there is no confusion there - unless you enter the sidereal/tropical debate, lol), the house as the area of life within which we can most effectively do that work, and the kinds of experiences that can trigger some breakthroughs. So, it's highly possible that this can happen with more than one cusp, and cusps make sense especially since we are talking about some concrete manifestations in the outer world. It can enrich the analysis so am all for it;) And that's also when intuition becomes handy too.
@mona What I meant by referring to the western outlook is that they don´t bother about boundaries for aspects etc; the house or sign doesn´t matter, they only focus on the distance between the planets. And my understanding from the course is that Ernst applies a similar outlook on Rahu and Ketu, like: "anything on the Rahu side of the chart" or "anything on the Ketu side of the chart", and the closer a planet is to Rahu/Ketu, the more prominent is the effect.
Personally I don´t have any big issue with the house systems, since Campanus seems to be the only consistantly logical one to use, as explained by Ernst in the Jyotisk course. But that´s another theme and not what I was referring to in my comment.
Mattias
@meyes Actually, just realized there is a Healing Rahu and Ketu 3 that I totally missed... ???? Healing Rahu & Ketu 3 – Astrology-Videos.com (astrology-videos.com) Check out Integrating bhavas and Rasis, in case you had missed that page as well... Really interesting.
And, re: Campanus, yes it makes sense of me as well.
@mona Actually that´s exactly the part I´m referring to, there one thing Ernst speaks about is the "Rahu half" and "Ketu half" of the chart, and the general tendencies of the planets to support or not the development of Rahu/Ketu. Whether conjunct or not.
No wonder you didn´t get what I meant if you haven´t seen it yet.
🙂
@david108 off the top of my head my friend's chart he has mars conjuncts his 4th bhava cusp. His mom has had several surgeries (Mars thing) in her life and tends be accident prone...
tuyet
I have Saturn in the 4th cusp and my mother is from a foreign country. She never fully adapted culturally to the country she moved to (where I was born).
I was also very close with my grandmother (my mom's mom) while growing up but she didn't live with us all the time.
@kam Then it would be interesting to hear about your 7th; indicating the mother of your mother.
Mattias
@meyes An empty Pisces, with Jupiter in the 8th with Rahu. She was very spiritual and devoted to God. Unfortunately, she didn't have a very good living situation due to family and cultural circumstances, so I spent the majority of my life worrying about her well being. I suppose that stems from the 4th house/Cancer influence on my Saturn in Sagittarius.