Guilt is an issue more seldom talked about, I find.
Perhaps the reason we don't talk about it so much is because it may come under the lajjita - shamed umbrella? I admit I'm still learning about what shamed planets look and feel like (I have none in my chart).
But as someone who knows first-hand how painful and hard to overcome guilt can be, I believe it's important to analyze and spot astrologically, and then of course incorporate in our consultations and counselling for clients.
I've jotted down my thoughts so far, about what factors in a chart could point to tendencies towards severe feelings of guilt:
Diclaimer: I think guilt is a natural part of the human experience and perfectly healthy to feel in certain circumstances. Here, we're talking about excesses and pathologies.
I would love your input and thoughts.
1. Starved Saturn (e.g. the infamous Mars Saturn conjunction)
2. Troubled 2nd house - as 2nd is the house of taking care of your responsibilities. Perceived mishandling of such responsibilities, believing that we didn't do the right things at the right time to care for people, or anything else under our care, could lead to feelings of guilt.
3. Troubled 10th house - regrets and feelings of shame/guilt about our actions in the world?
4. Afflicted Jupiter - inability to fully forgive yourself (and others by extension)
Not sure yet whether afflictions to the 4th or 6th house, Capricorn, the Moon could come into play.
Good suggestions, I think. I would be careful though. Often guilt is a mental concept, rather than a true emotion. Manytimes we use guilt as a mean of getting away from some obligation or from taking action helping people for example. Perhaps we didn´t do anything, but at least we feel guilty, and that must meen that we are conscious, right? Personally I think that guilt often is a mental construction is one of our ego´s most powerful traps.
With that said, I think it´s easier to spot guilt in the Cards of Truth than in astrology. Kings and Nines - especially the idealistic 9 of Clubs - may indicate guilt, as may blocked sevens (problems of letting go).
In astrology I´ve seen Jupiter/Rahu creating a false sense of consciousness, that might manifest by presenting guilt as "consciousness".
I would also take a glance at the fix rasis, as in "not letting go". Hangups.
Basically: any indication of a stubborn mind could indicate guilt, I believe. Guilt as a mental concept and ideal in that case, rather than a true emotion.
Staffan
@staffan Thank you for your input and analysis! Yes, feeling guilty definitely can be used as a crutch in and of itself as well: "if I torture myself internally (through guilt), at least I am partially paying for the wrongdoing that makes me feel guilty in the first place".
Rahu/Jupiter makes sense, I reckon that in general people with a robust Jupiter rarely feel such caustic emotions as guilt for too long. They probably acknowledge their misconduct, learn from the experience, and simply move on...
As a painfully idealistic 9 of Clubs myself 🙂 I confirm your theory about Kings and Nines! I am fascinated by the COT system, but consciously decided to pause my learning there for a while, since focusing on a complex system like Astrology takes all of my mental bandwidth for now. But I'm extremely curious about it 😀
That´s fun! I´m a 5 of Clubs, meaning that for me 9 of Clubs is on the 7th place, related to Saturn - something that I must learn to give up. Breaking free from codependence and relations build on guilt has been a huge part of my path. And still is, so I guess this is a theme that resonates with me. Actually 5 of Clubs is very much about giving up every single idea about the world and how it should be. 4C on the Pluto card; 5 of Clubs gest beaten up the moment her or she tries to say anything about the world, so actually I should learn to shut up.
Which is hard with a preaching Jupiter/Ketu combination in the 5th house. Ashamed. 🙄
Meanwhile my beloved King of Spades wife has 9 of Clubs as her 12th card, the Neptune position, so her deeper connection with life and God goes through idealism... I guess I´m her to keep her attached to the ground.
Staffan
Actually I wrote a thesis in literature many years ago about guilt as a religious attitude, used as a mask to get away from our real tasks in life. "The primadonnas of religious guilt" was the title, say no more... So this is a theme that have really thought much about.
Twelve years ago, due to circumstances of life - I was about to get tossed into jail due to false accusations and a corrupt judicial system - I had to leave the country in which my daughter live. From her perspective, and as her mother told the story to her: abandon her. Although I´d make everything I could to avoid it and share the custody for her I got into a state of guilt. Luckily a friend pointed out to me what an egocentric and nonproductive attitude it was. My guilt was in no way going to help her, my task was to heal and get better, and be in good shape when she finally decided to return. Unfortunately she got brainwashed by her mother and her family, ending up depending on psychofarmaka and had a stroke in the beginning of the year as a result of that. Luckily she got away from it rather undamaged, but it was a close call. She still believes I abandoned her and refuse to be in touch. It´s very painful, but at least it gave me a deep lesson about guilt and how important it is to let it go. The spirits that guide me have told me that the more I release myself and heal, the more it helps her to do the same.
Now I´m wondering whether Jupiter/Ketu might be an indication for false and stubborn ideas too..
Staffan
I don´t know if the thread is still alive, but I also want to add that I think that we might reconsider the term "lajjita" to mean not only shame, but also to a degree guilt. I mean, if we commit shameful acts, we often harvest guilt as a result of it. Enevitably so, I´d say, if it affects other people negatively.
Staffan
@staffan they definitely are linked, but also distinct in some ways. I'm certainly looking forward to any content or discussions on the topic. For me it feels like an ulcer in my stomach, when it gets very bad and prolonged, and can take me to very dark places mentally. (thankfully I'm quite resilient in other ways, so I manage to swim back up to the surface eventually)
Perhaps Ernst touches on that in the PAC course, I have not gone through the whole course yet.
@nkan I think it might be your 9 of Clubs that is expressing itself.
What´s your age? The 8th card, associated with Rahu, matures between 42 and 45 as you may know. Before that there is generally not much we can do about that energy/experience.
In the case of 9 of Clubs it´s Jack of Spades. It´s one of the most cynical cards and teaches us that sometimes we don´t have any choice but to hurt people. Survival come first. It´s not possible to live on Earth without causing pain to others. It´s hard for 9 of Clubs to accept, and it´s what Rahu is trying to teach you.
The Danish comedian/pianist Victor Borge that you may google on YT was a Jack of Spades and he has a very sarcastic, cynical humor - but also a heartwarming side and is arguable one of the best classical pianist that ever lived. Well worth for a 9 of Clubs to study.
The third card, related to Mars, is KH, which normally would make it easy to overcome losses and sacrifices, especially when it comes to relation. "Tough love" should be easy to a 9C. But if that card is obstructed by Saturn or Rahu, and to a (lot) lesser degree the Sun, that energy might be blocked. It still comes through, but not without some kind of struggle.
Staffan
@staffan I'm 36. "It´s not possible to live on Earth without causing pain to others" - this is an on-going lesson for me, very challenging to feel it, even if I undertand it rationaly. During my teen years I literally struggled even with walking on grass, due to being afraid of injuring or killing ants. I felt guilty for killing mosquitos, because I thought "well, they need to eat to survive, I can survive with a few mosquito bites". I still have a great respect for nature and any and all animals on Earth 🙂 and try to practice ahimsa whenever possible.
Humans I have less of a problem hurting, as they have so many more options and opportunities to act in different ways - and sometimes do deserve (from my perspective) to suffer consequences of their actions. But for example when my mom passed away, I struggled for many months with severe guilt - wondering what I could have done to save her, protect her better, spend more time with her when she was alive etc. (even though I did always try to be a good daughter). Just a few examples of far too many.
I will look into Victor Borge, I do love comedians.
I have an exalted Sun with Pluto and the 10th cusp in the Mars card 😀 so yeah, it's a fun journey. Life has certainly not been boring. Thank you for your input and guidance!
I'm so looking forward to studying the COT system.
@nkan Yes, the CoT-system is wonderful and very accurate. To my understanding it depends on the reader´s Venus though. A good Venus gives a better connection.
To me the Rahu card represents an energy that is not only hard to master, but also has the potential of becoming our best resource once we get on top of it. Like a strongminded, good horse that throw you off all the time - until you finally manages to become it´s master. So a healthy cynism should be something that you can be really good at - but probably not until you are 45 years old and has gone through the Rahu maturation. Until then we are more or less victim to that energy, unfortunately... And of course few people manage to get on top on that energy completely. If we do that, there are no borders, I believe.
What you say about having a knack for, if we may call it so, cruelty towards people may contradict all this, but I think it´s like the other end of the stick. It´s a central theme for 9 of Clubs, that for sure. And the Mars card indication - King of Hearts - says that you indeed should be good at making emotional sacrifices. Which sometimes mean sacrificing friendships and even close relationships, of course. So there is really a duality going on there.
Also an exalted Sun tend to give a certain cruelty to a person, of course. The Sun people tend to be so focused on their main goal that they sometimes don´t care about the weakness of the people around them. I don´t know if it´s a bad thing, but it´s definitely something to be aware of.
As for Victor Borge, this video might be the best example of what I told you about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqgRs_7yTsE&t=59s I don´t find the whole part with English subtitles unfortunately. I´m not sure at all that you are going to like it, but I still think it illustrates the Jack of Spades energy. He plays with the poor flute player like a cat with a mouse... Rather cruel, I´d say. But not without a good heart at the bottom.
Staffan
Perhaps I should mention that Jack of Spades is primarily about struggling for one´s life alone, with noone helping you, or feeling that you are abandoned but having to get through anyway. But it also has this "young gangster" quality to it. When our survival is at stake we can´t consider the moral aspects of all our actions.
Staffan