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siderial for big groups?

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Werner
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Hariomshalom! 1: I just saw a video by Raffael Gil Brand, a german astrologer who studied western and vedic astrology. He uses Raman ayanamsa for mundane analysis. And is also a "lover" of galactic center and galactic plane, like our Ernstsahib. And has very convincing examples of connection between big worldevents (like founding of religion or change of civilisation) and astrological factors using the siderial zodiac.   Maybe for masses (nations, Mankind) siderial is correct? 

                      2: Gyanavatar Dwal Khul ("The Tibetan", Alice Bailey) writes that for different people (depending on where they stand on the evolutionary ladder) we should use different  astrological factors to interpret. For "average contemporary people" He writes: use planets in the houses plus tropical(?) sunsign + tropical(?) aszendent. When person becomes disciple of a real spiritual path this analysis becomes wrong, because person gets planetary freedom. Now such person should more be analysed using energies of siderial(?) signs and planets there.

(?) D.K. not writing expressis verbis, but its my interpretation (He gives only hints which mostly I maybe dont interpret correctly).

Looking forward to your comments, folks.

Ceterum censeo more and more Kaala being a wonderfull astrosoftware.

Seems mankind is facing horrible times, but: never forget that this is needed for the new era of a golden time -without ever falling back into kaliyug- to come. Thats my comfort in these times. May it be a comfort for you as well!

                                                                                                                            

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Mattias
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Why would sidereal be correct? I can´t see that you are giving any reasons. Because someone says so is not a reason, of course.

To me sidereal is a joke. I´m from far up north, where the difference between the winter solstice (very little light that day) and the sidereal timing of the solstice (hours of light every day already) is more than evident. I can´t believe they are celebrating the solstice almost three weeks late! It´s like Monty Python´s version of Michelangelo, painting cangaroos on the Last Supper. Sidereal, after having seen that, can´t be even considered as a serious option for solar based astrology. They are making fools of themselves.

Best regards
Mattias

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Werner
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@meyes dear bro: i never wrote that makar-shankranti goes sidereal. the idea behind my post is, that people on different evolutionary level need different astrology. this should be quite clear, because a person on spiritual path gets free from grip of karma. in the esoteric astrology of Master Dwal Khul, as is given in books by alice bailey thats called "planetary freedom". e.g. analysing planets in houses gives no good results anymore, but energies of signs and planets therein become important.

"Because someone says so is not a reason, of course." that goes without saying. But if a gyanavatar gives hints, an astrologer with open mind is well advised to start thinking about that, imho. Masters of any kind of yoga (bhakti, gyan, karma, rajayoga never want us to believe anything. they did not come to have followers or believers, they came to make masters). siderial astro sure has its place imho, but for what and when is the question. question of ayanamsa also not yet really decided.

So: many questions and long way to go. as we develop, our astrology develops and sure many fascinating new insights waiting for us. the less dogmatic we are, the wider our astrohorizon will be.

regards

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Mattias
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@werner I agree, I´m just very visual and can´t get that image of people celebrating the Sun solstice almost three weeks after the astronomical event out of my head. After that I can´t help giggling when "the Sun" and "sidereal" is mentioned on the same page. It doesn´t mean that I know anything about this. But so didn´t the children in the fairy tale about the emperor´s new clothes, they were innocent and uncunning but were right about the emperor being naked. It doesn´t mean that sidereal doesn´t have a place in astrology - but for the Sun? I keep giggling. Acknowledging at the same time that I really don´t know.

Mattias

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Manisha
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@werner

Thanks for posting this. Esoteric astrology has a color of its own, and it is interesting when I add it to the mix of the different types of astrology and occult sciences out there. What I find missing in one, I find it in another.

I am really interested in the differences between Sidereal and Tropical astrology, and the existence of both. I think it is not one or the other, but both together. Astrology with regards to the conception of a life and the changes in the foetus takes my interest. The missing Vargas in Vedic astrology says a lot. What if we have got the context itself wrong?

We have a long way to go yet.

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Werner
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@manisha "We have a long way to go yet." definitely. I jump from tropical to siderial (ayanamsas from dwal khul to sri yukteswar and others) since more than thirty years, nowhere really convinced. Human can be "man the beast", man the human" or "man the god" ("man" = "woman"). must be very different astrology for those. Sorry not to have answers, but asking questions is the first step to get answers. 

horoscopes of conception sure are very valid (again a question: when is conception exactly and how to find out).

Alice Bailey to study takes lot of time and intellekt PLUS intuition, thinking PLUS meditation. If you are interested: Alice Bailey: "Esoteric Astrology", and as basis for trying that needs first: Alice Bailey: "A treaty on the seve rays 1" + "A treaty on the seve rays 2".

regards

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Werner
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I hears from one Paramhans in a Satsang saying, that horoscopes of conception give much better insight into the individual than birthhoroskopes. Astrologers use birthhoroskopes because they dont know the conceptiontime.

(I know some of the tecniques, like ascendent of conception is moon of birth and so on), but its difficult to confirm and different tecniques gave me different results. (played with that 30 years ago in time when i became father of a couple of kids. And soon gave up. How do you  find out exact time of conception?

 

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Manisha
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@werner 

We ask the question, “When is conception?”, and we again have a plethora of answers  😀  Which one would you like to term as ‘conception’? The ‘conception’ of which part of us? As I see it, there is no answer, only questions. And multitudes of perspectives that are correct in their own rights. The quest for the indivisible truth is what defines existence. For a time, we think we have found the right answer, but the pull towards ‘The Truth’ dissolves that illusion too. Ah, the fun of having senses. What story are we playing into? We break through one illusory layer and find ourselves trapped in another much subtler one 😀

But, I am new to this world, only 5 years in and on a lateral expansion, kind of getting a birds eye view, so don’t have much to contribute yet.

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Ernst Wilhelm
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@werner Yogananda said that as well and that Sri Yuktesvar would calculate the conception time. It seems to be a lot art as the methods shown in the books do not work at all.

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Werner
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@ernst Interesting. pity the Sri Yukteshwar book is missing. Seems Lahiri Mahasaya didn`t want it to be published. Thats all very mysterious.

 

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Ernst Wilhelm
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@werner Sri Yuktesvar had given the book to Lahiri Mayasaya. His library was inherited, passed down and perhaps sold. It ended up in the hands of a Svami in San Deigo who would not publicly admit he had the book. This svami also did not like Sri Yuktesvar or astrology so he was not going to publish it and eh woudl not communicate with me or others i know about it. He died a few years ago. I have tried to track down as to what happened to the library but no one is responding. I figure it will show up one day when and if its meant to, and perhaps it was destroyed, which is also very possible. Its quite normal in India that the best astrologer leaves no teaching behind to follow. Even Jaimini did that with his cryptic sutras. THere was a jaimini astrologer in India who was known for miraculous use of Jaimini, he never taught a single person.

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Werner
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@ernst omshalom!  "I figure it will show up one day when and if its meant to, and perhaps it was destroyed, which is also very possible." I agree 100%!  ;-)) Where was the library`s last place and owner of which you know? OMSHALOM

 

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Ernst Wilhelm
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@werner IT looks like they have a new website, so one of his disciples must be managing now, but dont know if they have the entire library Sanskrit Classics – Powered By W2N.co

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Werner
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@ernst " It seems to be a lot art as the methods shown in the books do not work at all."      and if soomething is correct we cannot know, because no chance to verify. its the same with comparison of horoscopes of reborn people. how we know the old horoscopes (of birth and death) and how we know that its the same soul reborn anyhow.

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Amit Bhat
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Major problem is people don't do it scientifically enough like Ernst has done. Easy way is to learn avasthas and rahu lessons. For most charts, they will be enough to say which works better. And last step is try to predict exact day of event. Once you reach to last step, then you won't ask which is highly accurate but know it yourself.

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Werner
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@amit Ernst without doubt is doing great job as scientist. I thank him for that. It does not mean that we should stop shining if there is a bigger light. Also intellect is one way of knowledge gain, intuition the other. bird with one wing will not fly. Ernst being kriyayogi definitely will agree. intellectual knowledge always limited and developing, which is good, but we should keep in mind.

"For most charts, they will be enough to say which works better. And last step is try to predict exact day of event." Imho there it really begins, not ends.

regards.

 

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Amit Bhat
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@werner 

If you just want to work with intuition, then no sort of astrology is required as it gives the correct answers right away. But intuition is not developed fully in anyone except true masters.

For God, laws are same for everyone and everyone is his child. So there is no question he will make different type of system for different people. He can accommodate everything in one system as that shouldn't be complex for him. The only thing is how much developed are we to see the next best step that need to be seen. And for that we certainly need to have some intuition developed. 

Having many systems means just getting crazy with them. So better work with any one system you like until more truth comes out. Also birth chart created is unique for an individual as he is the only person who took that first breath at a particular location, so that's why astrology works else nothing would work. And no one can know conception time, so that's not possible. 

I love the people who really don't need astrology because they know what they need to do!! 

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Werner
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@amit lot of buddhi and viveka in your writing. i am not that interested in correct analysis of a horoscope though, but just want to understand what houses, signs, planets etc are and how - means why - all these tecniques from vargas to dashas work. i cannot work with rules of which i dont understand the roots. now you can say: "in that case you should not be an astrologer". thats right. and thats why i am not an astrologer. but still try to find out. regards.

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Amit Bhat
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@werner 

Roots are same - Parashara and Jaimini mostly...

And I won't say you anything like that... certainly you should explore based on your own taste...

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zucccchini
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This conversation reminds me of the old lady that would not tell anyone how she made her cole slaw.  "It was a family secret!" she proclaimed.  Upon leaving this earth she was hence not known for the lady that made great cole slaw, she was best remembered for the woman who was selfish and would not share her recipe! 😉 

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Werner
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@zucccchini nice story. but folks here do not know the recipe, thats why our cake tastes terrible sometimes and nice next time imho, and would share.

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