If our actions cause a certain outcome, does our intention matter when it comes to the karmic debt we're generating? If we unintentionally cause someone harm, is this still something we need to "pay off" so to speak, in future incarnations?
What about if we had ill intentions, coming from an unhealed place within our psyche, or simply didn't care about the negative outcome due to selfishness, but there wasn't much of a negative outcome for others as a result of our intentions/selfishness?
I think there are so many ideas of what karma is and how it works that you'll find different answers to this.
I personally believe, based on hearing from someone who I believe to be a Realized being, that when are within karma we can't truly understand how it works. Only when we go beyond karma can we come to truly understand it.
One idea, maybe from the Bhagavad Gita, is that any action that is done with the sense of being the doer creates karma.
For the Gita, God is the doer and we are not, but when we think we are, then we create karma. The intention of the action may effect the kind/extent of karma, but it is really the idea "I am a separate person and I am doing this action" that creates the karma; if we aren't the doer then no action creates karma.
Also, our actions could simply God working through us to bring the effects of karma into the world for someone else; impossible to know truly.
On a practical level, the idea of karma can help us to take responsibility for ourselves and our actions, which I think is the whole point. I personally don't spend much time thinking about the details because I don't think it is very helpful, beyond that.
@j0sh4rp3 It goes without saying that this is all just theorizing and hypothesizing - none of us can truly know "for sure" 🤭
But I'm curious about people's thought process and insights nonetheless 🙂
"our actions could simply God working through us to bring the effects of karma into the world for someone else" - I think this is absolutely the case every time, but it's all intertwined. And just because I needed to experience, say, betrayal, doesn't mean that the person enacting it doesn't accrue some kind of karmic debt as a result of betraying me, for example.
@nkan also, something that I consider what if this is all predestined and we program this our life plan before we even come here which is why we don’t have much free will to change certain circumstances maybe we just set this all up before we incarnated here .
As christians we tend to get caught in the concept of guilt. From there stems this fixation on the intention: "I didn´t mean too..."
"Mea culpa, mea culpa." That´s egocentric, that´s a sin according to the old vedic books, Ernst tells us.
I think we have to let go of that idea and be observant. Someone fell off the cliff. Did I push him? I didn´t it? Did I in some way cause it? Even if I didn´t, am I indirectly responsable for not having forseen it and stopped it?
Can you see how we immediately get wrapped up in our own role in the event? Consciousness is not about that, although in the West it´s a common belief that having your mind fixed on your own guilt in some way makes you "consciousness". But it´s the opposite! Consciousness is to be aware about the fact that the world goes on with us and without us. Taking responsability for our actions AND at the same time not identify with them. Be the observer, even when we are busy paying our debts.
As for next incarnation and the consecuencies of our action, I believe that we are our own judges. No judgment day, no jury, no God pointing with his finger. The soul knows where to gravitate. When the masks are off - and they do fell off when we stop dealing in such an egocentric way with our own guilt - we know where we belong. In what shape and place we have to reincarnat.
I mentioned in a reason post that I´m critical of christianity. This is one of the main reasons. It teaches us to focus on our own guilt, making us wasting our energy and focus wrestling with our intention and whether we are being truthful or not. In stead of, as in the Eastern traditions, learning to be a cool observer, learning to observe. Or as in the Native American cultures: Be a blessed participant in the fabric of life, a part of nature.
Staffan
Short version: Paying much attention to hour intention wraps us up in egocentrism. It´s OK pondering on it, but if we identify with our bad thoughts or bad deeds, we can not be free. This doesn´t mean that we should be cut off and cynical neither, like Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment. The solution is, as always, surrender and acceptance.
Staffan
It's widely known, or perhaps claimed is the correct word, that taking a life incurrs a significant karmic debt. It is also said that lying should also be avoided whenever possible.
My question merely aims to explore deeper what exactly is meant by that.
Say a person works in the public sector and accepts a bribe from a company to fulfill a project for building a bridge. In order for both parties to profit as much as possible, they use cheap materials for the construction of the bridge and months down the road this causes the bridge to collapse and cause the death of a person. If there is such a thing as karmic debt, would the people responsible for this situation all carry as much of a karmic burden as if they had murdered a person point blank?
And would their debt be less if someone had discovered their corruption and scheme early enough to remedy the situation, and the bridge never ended up harming anybody as it was reconstructed?
This is just an illustrative example, I'm sure you all get my point.
@nkan Yeah... I think we all have felt that it´s more honourable to be a coldblooded murderer than a hypocrite like the one that you describe in your example.
Those are valid questions I believe, but I still believe they lead nowhere. Again, Western philosophy and thinking is all about "What if?", while at least Native American thinking - and Eastern philosophy too, I guess - is rather: "Observe!".
Staffan
@nkan It struck me that our different approach on this matter might be a reflection of our different cards. You are a 9C, right? Philosophy, ideals. I´m on the other hand, being a 5C has 9C on the Saturn card, telling me not to focus on that. Fun, if you ask me. No right and wrong here, just different approaches.
Staffan
@staffan That could be the reason, yes. I do however have indications in my chart for struggling with guilt, and for being overly judgemental, so I try to be mindful of that as well.
But you know, with a Mars AK, it's hard not to always think in terms of "right" and "wrong" 🙂
@nkan It´s also what we have been taught our whole lives. Christianity and Western society is built on guilt, so it runs deep. Hard to get away from it completely. Becoming unsensitive and cynical is just a negative form of it, so that´s not an option neither.
I have this image of someone approaching an altar saying "mea culpa, mea culpa!", wearing the guilt as a mask, and the spirits rolling their eyes while hearing it. Then: "I´m such a sinner, I´m the worst sinner that has ever lived on earth!" To which the spirits answer, I believe: "Stop being so pretentious, you are really not all that interesting. Shut up and pray!" Or maybe rather: "Shut up and do something about it!".
The only way to overcome it completely is to overcome the ego, I believe. And that takes a million year, Ernst says. So no rush, really. 🙂
Staffan
@nkan And then we have the Lagnas. I and Karinia are Gemini lagna, an anti-philosophical lagna. Doesn´t mean that we don´t fall into the trap of wanting to sort out spiritual things through reasoning of course, but we really shouldn´t. Venus is our only auspicious planet, and funny enough both of us have Venus in the 9th. Like a lighthouse.
What´s your lagna?
Staffan
@staffan Sorry, I missed this reply before. I'm a Leo rising with my Sun in the 9th. No surprises there, that we're interested in philosophical discussions, all of us. `
@nkan The thought experiment in your post has drawn me into this conversation. Unfortunately, it is not just a hypothetical scenario. It is quite a common occurrence in India. If the use of cheap materials entails that their quality would be inferior, which would result in the collapse of the bridge, then all those people involved have to bear the burden of the consequences. By 'those people,' I refer to the decision-makers within that enterprise. Aren't we all yoked to the outcomes of our choices? If so, in what way is the public servant not directly involved (not unlike the murderer from the other scenario)? When those who call the shots decide to use cheap materials, they are deemed to do so with full knowledge of the implications.
Krishnamurari
@murari116 When we start digging deeper, we eventually find that we're all, to different degrees, complicit in some great atrocities, because it's pretty much impossible to avoid, by virtue of existing in this society - created by highly flawed humans. But there are people at least trying to be decent, and then those with sociopathic tendencies, many of them quite "successful" in society indeed. In the end I guess it all evens out, after thousands of incarnations...
@nkan I agree. We are complicit, both through our actions and our inactions. But, don't you think that for a socially cooperative endeavour (for example, state/country, province, city, village etc.) to be feasible, some degree (by 'some' I essentially mean substantial) of accountability must be imposed on those who wield power? Ultimately, in the immediate scope of time and space, only some of us have to deal with the effects of the decisions of those in power. Can we honestly assuage them with the argument that "In the end...all evens out, after thousands of incarnations..."? Except for avatars, do we have any choice in choosing when and where we are born?
Also, successful people are successful. Why should we automatically impute goodness to them? Those who reach the top, acquire fame, and power rarely do so by treading the moral path. And, even if they do, once in power, they tend to get consumed by it. The lure of power is a double-edged sword. If you are not aware of yourself and in control of yourself, power will get the better of you.
Krishnamurari
@staffan I think it is a complex subject given that there are so many variables involved under the following broad themes: actors, actions (including their motivations), spaces, timelines.
Krishnamurari
@murari116 Very complex, and that´s one of the reason that the mind has a hard time grasping it. The body always know though. If we feel the hesitation in our body, it´s probably a warning that we shouldn´t do it.
I just listened to the Aditya course, the first part of it, in which Ernst speaks quite a lot about this very complexity. Like: if it´s family tradition, if it´s part of the human law that you grow up in, it´s probably free from karma, even if it´s a bad action. He mentions, for example, a young person growing up in a mafia clan keeping up the family tradition; at least that person grows into an adult consciousness any bad action is probably free from karma.
And the importance of not indulging in guilt. Remorse is productive, guilt is not. Indulging in guilt is egocentric and does not liberate us from bad karma, rather it drags us deeper into a pattern of bad behaviour.
Complex, to say the least.
Staffan
@staffan The distinction between guilt and remorse is thought-provoking.
Krishnamurari
@murari116 Remorse focus on the action, guilt on one´s own character, don´t you think?
Staffan
@staffan I have never thought about these two concepts in such a manner before. Also, now that you point it out, even if through remorse, action becomes the focal point, doesn't it still recognize the actor and the actor's role in instigating the action?
Krishnamurari
@murari116 Well, the action mirrors the actor. But that´s how we are supposed to get to know ourselves: through observation. Especially of our own words and actions. To watch the reflection, basically. That´s different than staring directly at one´s navel, right?
Staffan
I was thinking about this earlier and thought I understood what Staffan was saying in this way:
Guilt: "I'm a bad person. How could I do that? Will I be punished for it? What will happen to me?" (I,I,I,...me,me,me)
Remorse: "Is that person OK? Do they have the support they need to deal with what happened? What can be done to remedy the situation?" (focus on the other)
So yes if I feel remorseful it does recognize my role, but the *focus* is on the other person, or on the situation and how the situation can be made better, etc.
With guilt, the focus is all on me.
@j0sh4rp3 Yes, and also: What can I do to avoid this to happen again? What do I have to change? And then, of course, it´s about oneself, but not in a selfendulging way.
I don´t know; I just picked up an idea that Ernst presented, I believe it was in the video about Amshu aditya or it´s rishi. Somewhere in the Adityas course anyway. He mentioned the difference between guilt and remorse, without going deeply into it, I believe.
It reminds me of wealthy people that wants to help poor people, but out of guilt, not because of actual interest for those people. For example my own home country Sweden for many many years had a policy that 1 % of the GDP would go to assitance to the third world. Not the other, natural way round: Help based on need, but rather: giving money away for the Swede´s way to remediate it´s own guilt. Guilt can make us very blind for the person that we are using out of our own need for remediating. "We don´t need that thing, when you throw money at us it only makes our politicians more greedy and corrupt!" Sweden didn´t wan´t to listen to that. "Here, take our money!" I also think that there is a feeling of superiority hidden in that attitude. "We are rich, you are poor." I guess it always related. The thing is, guilt tends to make us blind for that. What we call guilt is often called "consciousness".
Staffan
@staffan When you speak of these greedy politicians, would you say that most politicians the world over would have more prominence of malefics in their horoscopes? Or, say, benefics not acting beneficently in their charts?
Krishnamurari
@murari116 Hm, I didn´t speak about greedy politicians. I didn´t speak about greed at all. Nor about politicians.
As for politicians´cards I don´t know, I haven´t studied many of them. I´d recommend Ernst´s investigation of the Trump cabinet and the adityas on You Tube.
Staffan
@staffan Right. That question just popped into my mind, given what you mentioned within quotes.
Krishnamurari
@murari116 OK. Well, rather than greed I referred to arrogance. The dynamics is: cultivate your own sense of guilt, rebrand it as consciousness and then write a check to get rid of the problem, rather then engage in the actual problem or listen to people´s real need.
Staffan
I truly believe that to aggress on others and cause them harm comes at a cost, whether or not any damage was actually done. The end result is always up to God, but we are responsible for our effort, our beliefs, our thoughts, our emotions even. And there are certain laws that we will evolve to see the truth of
you example of the bridge is a great one. I think the person in charge of public safety would eventually come to realize the importance of taking care of one’s responsibilities. It is a law to take care of one’s responsibilities. How they realize that is up to god. I don’t think the result of the bridge has much to say. It’s just the process of evolving for the individual.
@karinia this is what seems logical to me, too, but I have been a very judgemental person for a long time (Virgo Ketu with a troubled Mercury) so I'm consciously working on being more balanced and non-judgemental. This is why I find external perspectives very valuable.
Since emotion is basically energy in motion, it also seems logical to me that the intentions behind our actions should make a big difference, and that context should matter. I hate even the thought of killing or causing harm, but on occasion I've witnessed animals in pain who can never recover, so I've given them a swift "mercy death" - I can't imagine that that has the same karmic burden as killing for selfish reasons. Kind of like when you harm someone in self defense.
And yes, from a very high level perspective nothing really matters, but we were born into human bodies and given human minds, capable of grasping morality, for a reason. This is how it seems to me, at least.
@nkan yeah I get it. A bit different but I’m a sun ak conj mars in sag. Very ksatriya and fighting for belief based, especially with others as it’s in my 7th 😅 but fighting for really dumb beliefs and acting a fool has matured me as those beliefs have proven false over the years. I am actually grateful because if I wasn’t so boldly wrong while being open to the truth then I would still have those beliefs. So what has worked for me is to completely explore and fight for the beliefs until I find out if they are true or not, like a true sag haha. This is just one life of many so might as well yolo it and let the cringe out.
@karinia I like that attitude, and the fact that it comes with a laughing emoji. Jupiter is many things, but never pretentious. Jupiter loves when we commit to that kind of mistakes, it seems. Learning experiences, he thinks, eating popcorn while glancing at our latest error.
I very much vibe with what you says, so it might be interesting that I have a Sag Sun too, also in the 7th house.
Plus my Venus card with Ju/Ke in it is JH, your BC. Venus is my spiritual guide, ruling 5th and 12th and placed in the 9th, so...
Also having Ju/Ke in the 5th makes me percieve God as a playful force, even a joker. Such a joker that he makes us believe that he exists...
Are you familiar with Little My from the Moomin Characters? THAT attitude! 🙂
Staffan