I checked out the birth day for this British young woman that I find quite charming, Christine Grace Smith
https://youtu.be/-3i-hFKGexM?si=K6F_BZ7oqrWBojla
... and it´s September 19. She´s most probably a 5C. She´s advocating for men´s red pill movement, also know as MGTOW (Men go their own way). She´s basically an antifeminist; well, in the context of a modern feminism that one might argue have gone far beyond it´s original goals.
The EC of 5C is KH. Tough love. The father card. Even the patriarch, one could say.
She often refers to her father in her videos, which he obviously respects a lot.
I wondered in a thread a while ago about exactly that card; how does the male geared KH play out in female 5C´s lives, and found this example. I find it interesting.
Staffan
Kings are specialists. So King of Hearts asks for a focus on the one thing you love. Face Cards are not referring to biological sex in a birth spread (Ernst has said this too)
I think Georgia O'Keefe is a 5 clubs woman example, and in her case it applies to painting.
@ram Another female 5 of Clubs is Anandamay Ma.
Even though the card doesn´t mean that the concrete manifestation has to be a man, it well may be. One of the concrete predictions of King of Hearts that Ernst lists is Father.
(I changed this comment after realizing in what thread you were commenting, I thought it was another one.)
Staffan
@ram I read about Georgia O´Keefe. Good you brought her up. Her husband was 23 years older than her.
Staffan
@ram You really put me on the track mentioning Georgia O´Keefe. As said, she was married to a 23 year old older man. Also Anandamaiy Ma married an older man. She was only 13 and her husband, as it seems, much older. I guess it´s a theme in many 5 of Clubs´women´s life, it will be interesting to follow.
Staffan
Interestingly, both of them are well-known for themselves... not who they married. Anandamayi Ma's husband became her devotee (and their marriage was a celibate one), and Stieglitz believed in O'Keefe's artistry and supported her career.
With regards to age gap, it was common at that time I guess. Not sure if it is true as a general rule.
@ram Eh.... Yes. Why wouldn´t they be well-known for themselves and in what way is that relevant for our discussion about the KH?
Staffan
@staffan
Why is talking about the husband of a 5-clubs woman relevant to the KH being the ecliptic card of a 5-clubs woman? It does not apply to their husbands, it applies to the women themselves as they are the one with the 5-clubs birth spread. It is a 5 clubs journey to be the "specialist" in the thing they love.
What i said is relevant, because the husbands played an important but supporting role in their lives.. for their lives did not revolve around their husband but around their own vision or the thing they loved (painting or spiritual devotion)
@ram The cards manifest in different ways and there are also different ways of interpreting the cards. Understanding that is necessary for any meaningfull discussion. You are not to overwrite anyone else´s interpretation with your own.
I read the ecliptic card differently than the other positions. I believe that it actually often do represent external and concrete manifestations of that theme in the life of the person. But the concrete thing or person is only an omen of the energy that the card represents. An AD can for example manifest as new gadgets, 2D as new land, 2C as a good teacher etc. KH can indeed show up as an older husband, or a father, or it can be as I suggested in my post, a relation to that person.
I still don´t understand what them being highly independent women has to do with my mentioning of them having older husband.
Staffan
@ram Good thing that you mentioned it after all, since it leads me to the conclusion that KH also could be a supportive person. Not in a emotionally nurturing way, which would be a QH, but in a more practical way.
Maybe I should stick to the discussion of the concrete manifestations, but let me tell you that I read your comment as unnecessary dismissive towards the two husbands´ support. Support from which both women benefitted. It seems fair to say that these men built the foundation for, or at least played a crucial role in each of the women´s success. That seems to me like an example of how most of modern women as it seems, influenced or should I say intoxicated by feminism, flip the story so that the independence of the woman is pointed out at the cost of the supportive men. They are not only ignored, but often portraid in a downright negative way, as if their mere existence means that they are controlling and holding their woman back. At best a lack of gratitude and recognition, but often direct backstabbing. Which is one of the main reasons why the red pill movement exists and seems to be growing. Young men learn that there is not only little to win from a cooperation in any form with many, probably most, modern Western women, but that it´s also risky. Oftentimes, when a joint project goes into fruition, she will turn around and cut him off. Rather than being appreciative and grateful, the modern Western woman´s dependency on men - ultimately for such things as electricity, running water, oil, defence, cable and many other things - seems to make her angry and not in any way greatful. Men are seeing this and draw their conclusions.
Why did you point out these women´s independency, rather than, in a context of the importance of the men in their life, acknowledging the support that those man gave them? That you should reflect on, I think.
Did I choose the wrong place to express these thoughts? Maybe I did.
Staffan
One of the concrete predictions of King of Hearts that Ernst lists is Father.
Yes, but that is in the context of card castings and related things.
In a birth spread it's not like that, and you're talking of birth spread here, right.
@ram I have no idea what you have got that idea from. There is a big difference between saying "this card is their father" and "this card seems to tell us something about the relationship to her father".
Staffan
@ram I really should let this go, but my bad Saturn is taking the better of me.
I´m confused.
Why exactly is it that one thing from the concrete meanings list - in this case "art" - is a valid interpretation for KH, while another - "father" - isn´t? *scratching my head*
Staffan
I didn't say it couldn't be? I mean that it is not strictly about biological sex. Moreover, Birth spread is from the perspective of the person themselves, it's about them.
So, if a father is the ONE thing a woman focuses on as the thing she loves, sure, it could be the father. It's very unlikely that remains the case throughout a woman's life though, in most cases. And I guess Ecliptic is a "path", so only reveals itself through time.
@ram Well, as I said, this young woman, Christine Grace Smith, has had a present father during her upbringing and he has contributed to form her world view, and she often speaks warmly about him. That´s a manifestation of the KH as an EC to me. Also she´s an advocate for what could be called a man´s right movement. That too seems to align with the energy of this card.
To me the EC is a card that throws balls of a special type at us during our whole lifetime, so yes, there are going to be many manifestations of that theme.
As for Anandamay Ma it´s main manifestation is her own self sacrifice, I suppose. Discipline. I don´t know much about her though.
Staffan
Also she´s an advocate for what could be called a man´s right movement. That too seems to align with the energy of this card.
Sure, it could be an example, if she is interested in that as a "one" big thing she loves. If she is just following trends or being ideological (for the MRA is also an ideology), then it is just the typical ideological stubbornness of a 5 clubs person, which is bound to change over time. I am not interested enough in this specific woman to dig deeper into her videos to find out which, though it sounds like an ideological thing.
Your title seemed broader, so I gave other example... I know of Georgia O'Keefe from before I know cards/astrology. But if you mainly want to discuss the woman you have cited, then I'm afraid you have to wait for someone else to respond.
@ram Oh, it was just that you dismissed my reasoning, so after having cleared up that the misunderstanding I made clear what I had meant. She was just an example, the main theme was KH and how it may manifest in a woman´s spread.
I have another example that I haven´t mentioned, I believe, and that´s a 5C woman that I knew that suffered from anorexia from many years and died in that disease. I guess that´s another way a KH or maybe any King could manifest: self sacrifice. Her spread was blocked by a Ra/Ju conjunction that made her believe that she had great wisdom, and unfortunately she managed to convince the world about that, so she got stuck - my interpretation - in politics and an idea about being a world savior, all while she couldn´t resolve her own issues. A sad story.
Staffan
@ram You know, you really have a point here. Maybe you know I´m a 5C. And here I am, trying to improve the world, trying to convince you and the forum about how things should be or be seen. I really shouldn´t do that. I shouldn´t engage in this kind of discussions. Yet, here I am. Good reminder, I thank you for that, and I´m not being sarcastic why saying that.
God is such a humourist, I believe, always putting us in situations in which we reveal ourselves.
Staffan
You are not to overwrite anyone else´s interpretation with your own.
Right back at you.
I am so sorry, but I do not have enough time nor interest in getting drawn into arguing based on your ideological agenda. It is irrelevant to me.
@ram Well, you overwriting my concepts with your own has nothing to do with ideology, I believe.
But I´m absolutely OK with finishing this discussion. It has given a lot of interesting food for thoughts though, I think.
Staffan