I´ve said it before and I say it again: Beware of the deeper meaning of the fives, representing either the judgment or the justice card. Especially the black fives, perhaps. Judgment.
The black fives have the Jack of Hearts as a prominent card (5S: Sun card, 5C: Venus card), so they have a true inocence to them. Meaning that they can be really charming and easy to fall in love with. They make people lower their defence. But then... Tom Cruise is an infamous example of that, of course.
I believe that fives much like the Kings have to overcome their ego. It´s a great great card for spiritual growth of course, after all it´s the struggling card. But until then... Kings can be really hard to deal with, with their arrogance and dominance, but fives can be just as dominant I believe, just in a more hidden way. Back seat drivers in a way. They may take over the room with their judgment. They don´t show it openly, but secretely they make everyone on the party feel awkwardly observed. And that is because they are: the five is there making his - or her - call...
Yesterday my wife made me watch the movie Amelie from Montmartre, a movie that most people seems to find charming. It´s very much a Jack of Hearts movie... And it has always given me a hard time; I´ve seen part of it before and finding it painfully silly... (I´m a five of Clubs myself.) Realizing that there is a mirror that I really have to watch and learn from.
Black fives often prefer dying of hunger and thirst rather than being receptive to the good things in life. If it´s not on our terms, we shut it out. At least 5C with KD on the Uranus card; no material sacrifice is too expensive, as long as we are in control. Confirmed by the 4C on the Pluto card: Being right doesn´t work for us. Luckily we have 5S on the Jupiter card saving us from the worst consecuencies of that attitude, AS on the Moon card allowing us to start over again and 6H on the Neptune card honestly and deeply striving for deep human connection. Like no other card, perhaps. And 2H on the Ketu card as a wonderful prize, if we manage to overcome our 9C Saturn card - acceptance - and 9S Rahu card - killing the ego.
Not speaking so much about the red fives here, although I believe it´s similar. My youngest son is a 5D, and he filters the world a lot too...
As I said in another thread earlier today discussing the same theme: If you have a 5 as a client or as a friend, it´s recommendable to call them out on this. Fives really strive for authenticity and improvement, but you must not accept that they control you through their judgment.
Staffan
Hi Steffan. On the one hand, I can 100% get where you are coming from, being a 5C myself. The judgement thing, as you call it though, I see as understanding and perception. As far as control goes, I am fiercely controlling, this is true, but not so much of others- I have zero desire to control others but God bless the fool who tries to control me. Ha.
I do think you are onto something about judgement though as I've been a psychiatrist by trade for a number of years now and was a western astrologer before that. People tell me all about themselves, all.the.time. I would really like to turn the analytics off most of the time and strive for it, but I don't exactly see it as being judgmental. Some people when the meet me ask nervously if I am going to analyze them, but really, I would rather not walkabout wearing that hat.
I think if you are a yogi, being a 5 is great, but can certainly be lonely if stuck in a state of trying to evolve and develop the ego. I see the ego as a raft to help out in life, but there is perception in us greater than ego awareness, and 5's, like any other card, can get in touch with that and shine. I don't want to control anyone and looking back over my life (51 years of it) what I wanted and was constantly frustrated about not getting- was for others to all see things "my way" -as life has always seemed exquisitely beautiful to me, sacred and worth living. I was always getting my heart broken that others could not see the world like this, similar to the read Ernst did of Elon Musk, Elon and I have the same planetary conjunctions, I have in the past been let down and disillusioned a lot. I have had to learn acceptance, as we all do, that has been my hardest lesson so far. I think how 5's really ultimately manifest has more to do with where the planets fall in our spreads, than the simply the cards themselves. I have five planets in 7 cards (Su/Mer/Ve/Sa in 7D and Ma in 7H) and I think in many ways, the 7 defines my inner states more than 5C, which people see and I cannot deny, but with five planets in 7's, well, there is this huge 7 theme going on internally with my 5c-ness, this is a fact. I think in this way, Ernst's system is brilliant, it captures the differences we resonate through despite our birth card number.
@ashtangi108 Yes, the planets shape the experience further of course. But the main experience is still similar, if not the same. I can relate to most of what you say.
You wanting the whole world to share your view - isn´t that the 9C on the Saturn card, the idealistic card, that we as 5C must let go of? And if we get dogmatic, 4C on the Pluto card beats us up severely.
Also the loneliness: it´s the fate of most if not all 5C to develop through solitude, I believe. The 9S on the Rahu card sucks us into that experience, and only if we embrace it fully we may come out as non-judgmental, non-idealistic, open-minded people who are willing to connect with the world as the Ketu card wants us to - 2H. But since it such a tough card - complete ego break-down basically I guess very few 5C go through the whole process, I guess. A tough, but extremely rewarding challenge.
The reason I don´t hesitate to use the word judgmental in my text is because the 5C can be read as the tarot card The judgment. It sounds harsh and it often does come out as intolerance, of course, but it also indicates a critical and active mind that weighs and judges every concept and word, which of course tends to render some deep understanding. So it´s not only negative. But itnot effortless and easy, and that I think is what 5C ultimately strives for - to find an easy, effortless truth as expressed by the overlying card 4C and the Ketu card 2H. The easy, non mental way and at the end of the day: wordless, mindless contemplation.
7s indeed; I find it fascinating how the cards in a spread combine; so that we who are challenged by sevens also have helping cards like 5S on the 5th position and AS on the Moon card. "I´ve been desillusioned a lot" you say; I bet you have, but as a 5C you are designed to get over it easier than most others. Unless those cards are blocked by of course; then it´s tough. I have my 7H Mars card blocked by Sa/Ra and life has made it difficult for me to get out of bad relations; in the first cause because of codependence and after that I had to stay close for to be there for my daughter; in the next relationship I had to stay longer thatn I should because of children that needed me; I did the right thing staying several extra years because of that, sacrificing most of my dreams during a long period of my life, it took a big toll of me, but was worth it. I wouldn´t have been able to see myself in the mirror had I given up on my kids - that´s another 5C thing b t w, KH on the EC.
But the cards don´t lie - Ra/Sa blocking the card that is meant to make it easy for a 5C to break up from a relation, and so it played out.
Interesting sharing your thoughts, thanks for input!
Staffan
@staffan I love the way you spelled this out, and clarified what you mean about judgement. In that regard, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Your 7H with Sa/Ra ----vs mine with Mars, man-o-man the difference in that one. Question: what do you think about your Jack of Hearts in the sixth position? I am not proud of mine from ages 15 to 26ish, if you follow, and am really grateful I could grow up a lot. I've been married to my best friend almost 20 years now, but, if I had met him at age 20, no way. I simply was NOT mature enough to navigate commitments that deep and lasting. On a different note, I want to comment on what you wrote here: "...what 5C ultimately strives for - to find an easy, effortless truth as expressed by the overlying card 4C and the Ketu card 2H. The easy, non mental way and at the end of the day: wordless, mindless contemplation." Let's get into the weeds on this one because I think it's fascinating. Because of late, I've had the Saturn return to my first spiritual awakening over the past year, and recent transits have brought a new Guru into my life (also seen with transiting Jupiter cresting through my 12th house with Sun/Mer/Ve/Sa conjunction in there). But 29ish years ago, I had strong Saturn transits and got into medical school and met my 1st guru, a reclusive Kriya yogi who learned to meditate from a direct disciple of Yogananda's. During that time, I had numerous intense periods of living alone happily (which you alluded to before as well) while learning to meditate and falling in love with my path and the construct of obtaining enlightenment. Now, one full Saturn cycle later, I have met my second teacher, first through intense inner experiences, but am now out in the world of form and am studying with him. This second teacher is also a yogi from a wonderful lineage, but the difference for me this time, is mainly, he teaches how to embody enlightenment through health and a movement practice that fuses traditional hatha yoga with other eastern forms. I find my desire shifting from one of not just randomly achieving samadhi while in seated meditation, to one of craving and striving for embodied enlightenment, which, with Ra in the sixth, is actually the only way I can explain this drive in my own chart (zero planets in Virgo but always into yoga including lots of movement based yoga practices, although I have yet to study my divisional charts). I find your description well-elucidated- of the 4c and 2H as pointing to this goal of "...non mental way and at the end of the day: wordless, mindless contemplation." And further, even after a full Saturn-return to this construct, it is still there, and perhaps even more than ever before, in an embodied path. If we think of the 4C as the overlying way, it becomes even more telling that I am on the path of "health, happiness and longevity" through simple means, movement, breath control, less thinking, less stress, less thinking. You described it well.
@ashtangi108 Wow, that´s an interesting mirror that you put up. Yes, I believe that the 9C gives a clear hint about the need for simpleness and non conceptual thinking for 5C, since it expresses the need of giving up idealism and perfection. Which translates as, I believe: living in the present. Which is also expressed by the two red sevens: living in the moment. BUT - we tend to be stuck in our truths, of course. Perhaps not more than other people, but we suffer more than most from our stuckness. Pluto punishes us when we want to be right. Meaning that I should stop writing now, haha!
What about JH you ask... A double-edged sword, indeed. A wonderful card if used properly - playful, young, innocent. I believe that many 5C are good at understand and communicate with children for example. But it´s also a card that really invites you to use it in a selfish and corrupt way. For example many 5C men are womanizers, I believe. And as a woman - well, I don´t know, maybe you used your JH charm in a way that gave you advantages but that you later came to regret? There is this thing with JH that the innocence is authentic though, so even when we do take advantage of our charm in ways that we shouldn´t, people tend to forgive us, I believe. Well, it may also be because of 7H on the Mars position - complete breakdowns in relations cancelled in the very last moment. That has happened to me many many times, even though I have Ra/Sa in that card. The catastrophy in a relation of some kind seems unevitable, yet in the veeeery very last moment as it seems - it´s in some miraculous way saved. Does it happen to you to?
Anyway, a piece of advice that I would give any young 5C would be that they must learn to use their charm in a responsible way, or it will lead them astray and they will hurt people, and often the closest and dearest ones.
One other observation re JH: It´s easy to see why we need that card, with the two prominent Kings on the 10th and 11th position. But at least in my case it creates a ambiguity that has taken many years for me to handle, since young people tends to see the playfulness of my JH as a reason not to respect me according to my age, and I get into situations where I have to clarify it in a way that they often can´t handle. For a while it got so awkward that I avoided young adults altogether. I think I´m over it now though and have learned how to show the Jack and the King quality in a more blended way that is easier to understand.
Now if I may wonder: What do you as a woman - because you are a woman, right? - think about the KH on the 10th position? For a man it´s a quite easy card to handle I believe, especially if you happen to become a father. It´s the "father´s card", a quite natural role for us to play and I do believe that most 5C men tend to be dedicated fathers, although there is a "run away"-aspect in 7H. But for a women? I knew one 5C woman who died a while ago in anorexia, and it´s easy to see how the "tough love" aspect of KH can be turned against yourself. I would guess that it might be hard for a woman to find a comfortable way with that card; selfpunishment would be one risk, to either become what we call a bitch and/or unfairly be seen as one would be another. If JH is important for a male 5C to balance the King energy, I guess it must be even more crucial for a woman! If I as a man rely on my charm, being a 5C man, it must be at least twice as important for you as a woman, at least in younger years. Not so much in our age of course (I´m 56, so a couple of years younger than you).
Staffan