Hi Ernst,
I have finished all the classes and still have a lingering question that keeps coming up as I do readings...
When advising clients on their birth spread and they have a 3, 5, or 7 card in a
2,4,6,9 position or a 2,4,6,8,9 in 3,5,7 position are we to advise them on how to work through the setbacks of these positions?
I always want to give "solution-oriented" readings. For instance, I just gave a reading with someone who had a 5 of Diamonds in the Mercury position in their birth spread. I told them that they are comfortable with the constant hustle and the struggle to always make their life better materially. At first when I say this it doesn't necessarily sound like a problem but we know from the card system that this 5 in the Mercury (4) position is causing "potential for setbacks and disappointment" (your words).
So since we know this card is causing trouble, as a reader, it seems like here I have an opportunity to give advice, such as, "This five here makes you want to orient how you manage your life around always hustling and struggling to survive financially but this position may be causing disappointment so maybe there is something more secure to orient your life management around?" Or saying something along those lines... They had other things in their Rasi chart that also indicated this (Ketu in 6th/Rahu in 12th).
Another example is a woman who had 3 of Hearts in the Moon card in her birth spread and was asking me if she should leave her partner. She had a habit of always having another partner waiting in the wings as she left a relationship. Classic 3 of Hearts. Should I advise her, "Yes leave your partner as this is your moon card and your true nature to fly away from love and have multiple partners at once."??
Or should I advise her change this pattern because it is causing potential setbacks and disappointments?
I have 3 of Hearts on Venus in my birth spread and feel the first half of my life was full of drama around it. Now it no longer causes me problems so I feel I have "overcome" the setbacks of this position. Do I now advise others to overcome it? When you went over Lance Armstrong's spread in the example videos you didn't talk about his 3 of Hearts on Venus as being a problem. You said maybe he was meant to spread his genetic material around (or something like that). So here you make it seem like Lance's 3 of Hearts is an asset and part of his nature and not necessarily something he needs to overcome in this lifetime as a potential setback.
So anyways .... the crux of my question is:
Is the 3, 5, or 7 card in a 2,4,6,9 position or a 2,4,6,8,9 in 3,5,7 position WEAKNESSES/WOUNDS that the client is meant to be overcoming or healing in this lifetime?
Or are these cards part of the clients true energetic nature that they are meant to be embracing and accepting as their true nature and living their life in accordance with that energy?
Thank you!
As with Jaimini astrology, there is an elegance and novelty to the the cards system and how it illustrates the cycles of Earth-based life unfolding mathematically. And in that sense it can refine and develop the mind and intellect simply by the study of it. You can get insights into nature.
But also, as with Jaimini astrology, I am not clear on the ways it can be used to help people. (I know it can to some degree).
I guess that knowing the path we have been put on to travel, and the weather that is coming our way, can make us aware of how we may be tempted to respond with our Lajjitadi Avashthas and Ra/Ke habits.
Sometimes it can feel cozy to feel contained within something, or yolked to a larger process. A system, a matrix, or a geometrical dance.
At other times one can feel like a puppet tied to a rigid unforgiving script and stuck in a merciless and non-interactive machine.
I guess divination is not for everyone.
S.
Sometimes it can feel cozy to feel contained within something, or yolked to a larger process. A system, a matrix, or a geometrical dance.
At other times one can feel like a puppet tied to a rigid unforgiving script and stuck in a merciless and non-interactive machine.
Well said!
@mitryendra80 Well I am pretty darn motivated to find out how it can be used to better help people so I will keep asking the Universe to show me and perhaps something will be revealed with more time and experience 🙂
Hi Rhiannon,
Or are these cards part of the clients true energetic nature that they are meant to be embracing and accepting as their true nature and living their life in accordance with that energy?
That’s the way I approach the birth spread, as a potential. As such, I don’t think in terms of good and bad cards. Doesn’t mean some are not more challenging than others.
Should I advise her, "Yes leave your partner as this is your moon card and your true nature to fly away from love and have multiple partners at once."??
Personally, I don’t think it’s the Astrologer’s job to tell someone what they should do. The 3 of hearts can also mean that, while in a relationship, they’re comfortable being away (and independent). That understanding can help them shift how they see relationships. If they really want to know, you can always pull 2 spreads, one that would describe the situation if they stay, one that would describe the situation if they leave and let them make the decision based on that.
And, as already mentioned above, Rahu/Ketu and Lajjitaadi Avasthas can deepen the understanding of the spread.
@mona Thanks for the insight, Mona. I enjoyed hearing your thoughts.
In regards to your comment about not thinking of the cards as good or bad cards... Yes, I did not say anything about good or bad cards, only referenced the fact that Ernst teaches a foundational aspect of the card system which is that certain cards in certain positions cause "potential for setbacks and disappointments" (his words). I think everyone can agree that even without labeling something good or bad we all would love to navigate "potentials for setbacks and disappointments" better in our lives.
So my question remains if there is a way to utilize the card system in a way to grow beyond these potentials for setbacks and disappointments. Perhaps I am looking at the cards too much like Avashtas. I like how the Avashtas show us karmic patterns and behaviors we can work on. This gives a self-empowering approach to astrology. Therefore, I wonder if I can coach my clients in a more self-empowering way with the cards. If there is a card that gives potentials for setbacks and disappointments - then well, is there also away to make choices around that card to lessen these potential outcomes or is it set in stone?
Knowing a way to coach in this manner would give me more utility with the system and would make it more of a helpful tool beyond prediction. Same goes for if the cards are telling us our ideal energy to use. Then this would be helpful in helping a person follow their inner compass. Coming from a background as a healing arts practitioner, I am way more interested in supporting people in their spiritual growth than prediction.
Yes, I agree that it isn't the astrologer's job to tell people what to do. I did pull two spreads in that reading with the questions being, "what would the outcome be if I left my partner and what would the outcome be if I stayed with my partner?" The client can decide from what the cards say from there.
But the reading (and the twenty or so others I have done since learning the system) still left me wondering if there was more that the cards are saying around whether something is a person's true nature or an energy they came to learn to work with in a different way in this lifetime? Perhaps knowing which one could provide a way to have more ease rather than potential for setbacks or disappointments? Or maybe it doesn't matter which it is and the potentials for setbacks are just part of the journey here on Earth and the cards are just telling us what to expect and to learn to live with the hand we are dealt.
I tend to lean towards an energy to deal with (when we look at examples, we look at it retrospectively and the way it manifests in Lance Armstrong is likely manifesting in a complete different way with someone with the same birth card).
@mona Also look for 7s, 9s and especially Kings in their spread; if there is a King backing up this "bad" position, the person will have a deep understanding for the value of offering and sacrificing and you can pretty much rely on there capacity for understanding that.
As for bad planets: Bad Jupiter, I´d say. I had a 7 of Diamonds the other day, normally a card with a deep understanding of offering and sacrifice. But with a bad Jupiter in Rasi and Navamsha she would just not listening to that part of the reading. Which is a real pity, since it´s kind of the big talent they´ve got, the 7 of Diamonds.
Mattias
Hi Rhiannon, no, no! I don´t think that the 3 of Hearts should be understood in that concrete, relationship oriented way at all! It´s not to be seen as a concrete advice from life itself to have multiple partners, that would be only if planetary positions and cusps really point that out, but as a general rule, having many partners is never pointed out as a path for spiritual growth in any tradition I think, or that would be very special cases. The general rule is: have no sexual partner or stick to one.
Rather it´s about devotion and growth in love. Adapting through emotional expansion. At most, in a concrete relationship context, I would tell that person that it might be hard to understand and relate toa jealous and controlling partner, who does not understand the person´s need to connect to the whole world. But no, it´s no mainly a relationship indication, it describes a deeper internal attitude.
That´s my understanding
Mattias
@meyes Yes I feel that energy from it. But Ernst did do a whole example on Lance Armstrong's Birth Spread Cards in which he focused in on the 3 of Hearts in the Venus position being the reason that Lance had so many women to date and was non monogomous and that perhaps it was because Lance was a strong human specimen and that perhaps his 3 of hearts was to procreate. An interesting perspective in which Ernst narrowed in on the relationship aspects of the card only.
@rhiannon I agree, of course it may lead to that. But I would not give the advice "you are supposed to have many partners" though. "You have a promiscous nature". Maybe there where some other indiciations too, the 7th cusp or Venus or something like that in Lance Armstrong´s chart?
Mattias
Or maybe it doesn't matter which it is and the potentials for setbacks are just part of the journey here on Earth and the cards are just telling us what to expect and to learn to live with the hand we are dealt.
You have hit the nail on the head. Acceptance is a big part in feeling ok with oneself. All the occult sciences seem to help us get to that level of acceptance.
An odd card on an even position or an even card on an odd position - it brings in differing energies, one is stable while the other is changing. Sometimes the energies work faster than the brain/mind can catch up with. If one is comfortable in one’s ways, then incoming changes feel uncomfortable, and the brain interprets it as setbacks and disappointments. But one can teach the brain to look at it from another perspective and see the silver lining in the supposedly black cloud.
In the example of the lady who has 3 of Hearts on their Moon position, the reason she asked the question instead of jumping in and just doing it as she might have done in the past, seems to indicate a potential of coming out of her learned behaviour.
The Hearts and the Moon position is all about emotional needs. Perhaps for her, she thinks it will get fulfilled through a partner. Perhaps not being clear about her needs makes her move from partner to partner to bring into her awareness what it is that she is looking for. Sometimes it takes a lifetime.
Perhaps the person is getting ready to acknowledge that what she is looking for might not necessarily be found in another person. That breaking out of the groove will take time and will feel uncomfortable until the new groove has been created. Would telling her what to do the right way to do it? Or perhaps getting her to acknowledge to herself what it is that she feels is missing the way to go? If she becomes aware even by 1%, that is a step in the right direction as things will start falling into place.
But again, what is the Avastha of the Moon itself? Has it been bad earlier, but is now good this year? How is Saturn doing? And what about Mercury? I find there is a lot of interplay that go on among the planets and the cards, and taking each one separately only gives one part of the story.
For the person with 3 of Hearts on the Moon card, is Neptune with Venus or in the Venus card or with the 7th cusp in their natal spread?
@manisha. No Neptune is in the Jupiter card with Uranus, Ketu and Jupiter. Uranus with 3rd cusp in natal spread.
You have to take base your reading taking in that energy, accepting it and realize that it´s a resource in that persons life. It might be a tough experience, but it´s always right. It´s who they are! More people that you would expect have prominent sevens and nines and Kings making them connected to the meaning of sacrifice in a sound way.
Using myself as an example: 7 of Diamonds on the 4th position. You can tell a 5 of Clubs person that they have the "millionaire card" on the Mercury position, sure... But rather you should tell them, I think: "You have a sense of something beyond, a reality beyond the material world, making this world not quite relevant for you; you have a sense of the divine (under- and overlying 9 of Hearts)" and "your instinct is to live in the moment, you enjoy the good things in life the moment it lasts but don´t need it as an everyday thing". That will help a 5 of Clubs person feel relief, because it´s who they are!
(In the case of 5 of Clubs it´s backed up by a 9 on the Rahu card struggling with the experience of sacrifice and two prominent Kings, on of the King of Diamonds on Uranus position, so offering and sacrifice becomes very natural and important to them; it´s an important gate for personal growth and happiness and as a reader you should point that out for them.)
"You don´t have to..." is a possible phrase for this kind of advice.
Mattias
@meyes Are you calling the 7 of Diamonds the "millionaire card"? Does Ernst call it that somewhere in his teachings? I don't recall that. I have heard Robert Camp refer to the millionaire card though. What makes 7 of Diamonds the Millionaire card?