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Venus card for men / Jupiter card for women

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Leela
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(@leela)
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Posted by: @ernst

but to co create is jupiter and woman still want a man for that as much as ever.

But a man needs a woman to co-create biological life too, it's not one-sided. In fact, a man needs a lot more from a woman to have his genes "live" on. So why is that not a factor for men? 

Or are you going with the idea that only women are interested in procreating, men are not? I.e. Men look for convenience in a marriage, and women look for having kids. 

Because then this could be a change that is happening in real-time, women are no longer considering procreating to be their only option to have/lead a creative life (and this is true). After all, a biological, hormone led creation is just a very basic and bodily expression of the IDEA of creation. A creative life does not have to manifest itself in a material, bodily-creative life aka procreation.

In which case why does man have to be Jupiter? Wouldn't it just depend on the context/woman? 

 

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(@meyes)
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The planets have been up there for a much much longer time than humanity.

The biology of the humans is a work in slow progress. The hormonal and sexual systems took many many thousands of years to develop.

Personally I don´t think that a deep change is possible within a few generations. It would take a much much longer time, and the foundation of what is feminine and masculine is there from the beginning and will never change, of course.

A sign to keep an eye on: Even if we see many women choose independence - and I don´t criticize them - do we see them getting fulfillment? I see - but that´s subjective, of course - a lot of women who has chosen independence, abortion, childlessness etc and that now express frustration, anger and even hatred. Not saying that it´s the whole picture, of course.

Mattias

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Leela
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(@leela)
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Posted by: @meyes

do we see them getting fulfillment?

Yes, I do see them fulfilled, especially when they have their own thing that they like to do. 
But when we have more options in life, and we make choices.. our minds can wander and think of other potential possibilities and feel bad/frustrated momentarily. This is nothing unique to women. Men too have their frustrations of unfulfilled potentials and possibilities that they do also regret. 
What is new is that women have had their options open up very suddenly, very fast. So other parts of us have to catch up.

It seems many men find it hard to grasp that women have a nuanced existence, which isn't so black and white or infantile. They are waiting and watching for her to express a moment of doubt so they can pounce and say "Gotcha!!" and then use her vulnerable moment against her. 

 

Posted by: @meyes

Personally I don´t think that a deep change is possible within a few generations. It would take a much much longer time,

So? I'm saying the concept exists, the potential exists. 
Plus, the MAIN REASON transformation takes time is because we believe so. It's a concept stuck in our minds, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. 
Plus, it doesn't escape my observation that women transforming (which is WIP now), scares men on some level, so that has to be factored in. 

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(@meyes)
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@leela No point projecting emotions on each other. I say women are not getting happy in the modern project, you say men are scared, how are we going to know and measure that? Only by listening to each other, but now I take a step back.

Mattias

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Leela
(@leela)
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Posted by: @meyes

No point projecting emotions on each other.

I admit that I made my comment on 'men being scared' intentionally. I mean, I could have kept it to myself but thought I'd say it. But, you did project, so I saw no reason to hold back. 

And, I took the time to write a long and reasonably nuanced response specifically addressed to points you brought up, and your response is "women are not happy". 
Yea, I'm done with this discussion. 

Goodbye. 

/// Not sure why this whole thing is coming in bold, it is unintentional and not going away.  

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(@meyes)
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Posted by: @leela

Nice job not actually addressing the content of what I wrote though. 

Being sarcastic is not the best way of convincing anyone, at least not be, that you are happy and fulfilled Leela.

Mattias

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Leela
(@leela)
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@meyes 
Lol, what? why would I try to convince you of my PERSONAL state, whatever that may be? 
Are you a therapist or a friend? No, you're a near-stranger on a forum. Leela isn't even my name, it's just a username. 

I thought we were talking about a TOPIC. 
Yes, on hindsight I think the sarcasm was unnecessary, however I just meant that you never actually said anything on my content, assuming you were replying to me. 

but this more an issue of internet and forum discussions, everyone just says their piece and leaves instead of responding, so there is no real discussion

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(@meyes)
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@leela You are absolutely right Leela, this is not in the least a discussion whether you are happy and fulfilled or whether I feel scared etc. I let myself get provoked by the irony, I´m sorry.

And yes, you are right, we tend to do that. Pick from the whole what we want to. I agree that it´s a problem.

That was the part of your post that woke up my thoughts, and in a deep way. Like "Do we have an actual astrological foundation to speak about feminine and masculine, men and women?" I think we do, but that doesn´t give me the right to be dogmatic and press my philosophy onto a client or anyone, and THAT´s the point. You are a 5 of Clubs like me Leela; I don´t know how you feel about our 4 of Clubs Pluto card; but to me one of the meaning is that being right tends to take us down. With that King on the Uranus card, uf, people don´t stand us if we are dogmatic. And they shouldn´t. Saturn and Rahu really really want to humble us, basically we should not know anything to work well with people! "The one who knows the most understands the least"; something along that line Lao-Zi says in Tao Te-King.

After all this all boils down to a 5 of Clubs clash. 😉 ; do you feel the same?

Mattias

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(@meyes)
Joined: 4 years ago

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And then, when we finally give up after having fought the whole world, and we are lying there hardly breathing... Look at the overlying card, that slowly manifests itself on the wall... Four of Clubs... Finally we are RIGHT!

The creator is the funniest guy and when he created Five of Clubs he really surpassed himself!

Mattias

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Leela
Posts: 229
(@leela)
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Posted by: @meyes

Like "Do we have an actual astrological foundation to speak about feminine and masculine, men and women?"

I don't know. 

We can look at certain qualities and call them "Active", and look at other qualities and call them "Receptive". I personally much prefer the 3 Gunas to categorise things rather than this. 

But the only real basis for calling them masculine and feminine is based on sexual organs. Just this one, biological facet of us. It's not even the entire picture in terms of reproduction itself, for there is much that is still unknown. For example, the womb is now discovered to be much more "active" in the process, and the sperm is much more "passive".  And the sperm has no more "life" than does the egg, for the egg comes to life through ovulation. 

Now if someone wants to make the assertion that sex and biology is the ONLY basis for anything, then okay.. fine. Call things masculine and feminine, I have no issue with that. 
But if we think there is some spiritual basis for life, and there is a "spirit" or a consciousness that can be perceived beyond the body, then sex and sexual biology and sexual differences is only a facet of us, that became too big in human consciousness due to repetition and habit. 

This is not to say men and women are identical or will turn out to be identical. Creation is a process of unfolding- things are still being revealed and uncovered. Maybe the full extent of what a "woman" can be, has not yet come into existence. If we keep pretending it has- then that's like killing a sapling or putting it into a pot and making it into a houseplant before it grows into a towering tree. To me, that is an unacceptable outcome. 

 

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(@meyes)
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@leela Actually the masculine nature of femininity is just below the surface, I think. It´s so close that women often has to dissimulate it, like when Marilyn Monroe plays the role of a really innocent girl ensuring that her heart believes to daddy. If she wouldn´t... well, THAT would scare men!

The irony with feminine nature, I think, is that it still needs the igniting spark from the masculne side. Just a tiny tiny spark, and THAT is a perfect way of getting the female ego, because come on, "We are doing all the work!" Yep! "We are just as good at it, if not better!" Yep! "We should have all the credit for it!" Well...

Still - remember - in all the myths, the only gateway to heaven is to give up our ego and identifaction with our capacites, only through surrender and humbleness can we find a way. (ESPECIALLY a Five of Clubs, haha!) So for women there is a natural challenge in the fact that she has to wait, she has to receive (How frustrating!), while the man usually finds the force that is going to master him in a more external way. Why not in a woman; that to a great degree has been my path, and like me many many more men, though we don´t speak much about it and it´s not part of the masculine myth. But we must all find what to surrender to. Women today oftentimes don´t want it to be motherhood, a relationship to a man etc; I understand that and I think it´s a worthwhile choice. But then, somewhere along their path, their will be some other limitation. Welcome to the masculine world of myths... When will Super Woman be as flawed as the masculine heroes tend to be, or is she? Personally I think it´s throwing away a wonderful opportunity to surrender to something alined with a woman´s nature, but again: I understand that we live in a special time with special needs, and right now maybe the need for discovering a new landscape is bigger than the need for fulfillment; I don´t say anything about it. But I can´t help having my thoughts about it.

Mattias

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