Hi Leela,
I would say that the Inner Self (Spirit & True Self) would be a knowing. Strong, sure, matter of fact voice - not loud but rather strong in knowing; whereas the Wounded Self voice would be more of mind and so it would sound something like: "such and such because...blah blah blah..." Do you see the pattern? It's not sure in itself so it needs to explain and over explain to justify itself otherwise it feels like it's lost control. There is no PEACE in the wound, which is of ego and not Spirit or Truth.
Truth just IS and wouldn't have a desire to explain although you can have a knowing of why it is that way as opposed to having the mind reach for justification.
How would you describe it?
Thanks, but I guess the first part of my question was just a lead-up to the actual question, which is the second part... I've edited it now for clarity.
But then I started wondering where the no is coming from.. whether it is my true voice or wounded voice. Am I saying no to the right thing, or just being fussy because my ego hurts? Moreover, beggars can't be choosers, Lol.
In my mental scenarios, whether I say yes or no, it seems there is much guilt, along with a host of other things.
What kind of a “no’ was it? Was it a bodily response or a thinking response?
I am working on a similar issue (post titled Resistance), but it’s triggered internally and not from an outside source. This is my theory in brief (I can write pages and pages on this stuff, but still need time to link it properly to the planets) -
There is a part of us that knows, and another part that wants to know and understand. Call it cells, DNA, brain function, neural pathways, universe, higher authority, whatever.
To link this to the interaction between Jupiter, Moon and Mercury, most of the things that we do on a day-to-day basis is in accordance to Jupiter’s wisdom and from an innate understanding. But that wisdom is filtered through the Moon’s emotions. As moody as the tides, a similar incident triggers different reactions - joy, frustration, anger, hate, guilt, etc. Those reactions are stored in the body. Because of the different reactions to a similar incident, we have confusion.
Mercury’s job is that of unbiased investigating and experimenting. Unfortunately, Moon’s reactions being already stored in the body, Mercury’s investigations become biased resulting in wrong conclusions (Mercury being Moon’s child and their resulting relationship with each other). These conclusions are now different based on the different reactions of the Moon’s emotions, causing more confusion.
Now, we not only have confused emotions, but also a confused logic. Hence the reason for the ‘breaking our head over it’.
The point is not whether you will work on the project or not. The point is resolving the confusion that exists within. Personally, I do an internal question-answer session, allowing emotion and logic to speak to each other and hash it out. The more things come out into the open, the less emotional the Moon becomes and the more unbiased Mercury becomes, allowing a better communication between the two and also a better perspective on things. Many things get aired, a lot of confusion gets resolved, and both get on the same page of either going ahead with the nagging issue or to drop it. Either way, peace of mind is restored.
You might have your own way of looking at your emotions.
@manisha
The word I'd use is intuition (to describe my no), but that may be akin to what is being referred to as inner voice, in the context of how these words are used on this forum.
Personally, I do an internal question-answer session, allowing emotion and logic to speak to each other and hash it out.
I do this too.. but is it really true peace if it's temporary and needs so much chatter?
So I was looking for a different strategy or trying to understand why I even do all this.
After all, I did get a clear answer right from the beginning in this case, so a better strategy would have been to just follow that voice as Ernst says, irrespective of 'which voice' it is. I'll know soon enough what voice that was. No need to be too clever. I just have to remember to not judge and berate my past self who took the decision, with the intelligence acquired by a newer self.... in case it turns out to be the wrong thing.
Hmm, there is one thing I would moderately disagree with, in terms of what you're saying. I don't think the moon's emotions are necessarily stored in the physical body, but the emotional body, which is slightly different? But the physical body also stores its reactions and issues and traumas, which is perhaps better understood as Saturn? There is an overlap though because the mind/moon does step in also does its interpretation. The body's logic is hard to understand and break, perhaps that's why the healing strategy for Saturn is to be 'lazy', so the body can do its thing. But I do think the body has to be trained to eliminate rather than ruminate, to break the pattern. Not sure though.
Intuition is a feminine quality, but without logic there is no balance. Otherwise you would not have been questioning yourself. It is only when intuition and logic work together that things come to fruition.
Chatter is different to discussing. I am not talking about chatter where each party talks but the other does not listen. But, if chatter exists, it’s because there is a stalemate and a new option needs to be found, which would be taking action and using Mars who is between Moon and Mercury.
All the other bodies are connected to the physical body. Even if we can’t see them, we can feel them. The more we feel and acknowledge them, the more harmonious our life becomes. To take your example, there is conflict between two of your bodies and you are feeling the disharmony. You have a few options here - ignore them, or resolve them, or as Ernst suggested follow them and see where it leads. Whichever way you choose, the aim is to bring harmony.
If we are not in tune with our body, it’s logic becomes hard to understand. The ‘not being in tune’ is because of certain parts of our other bodies not being acknowledged. “I don’t want to feel pain” works great in certain situations, but if it becomes a habit, then we are cutting off a big part of our defense system. In the end, that unacknowledged part tries to manifest itself in the physical body in different ways in its need to be part of what it is a part of, but also in it’s need to connect to the sustaining force that keeps it alive.
I do a lot of problem-solving in my brain. I get to see things from different angles and find solutions. But it is still not the same as doing it physically. But once I start doing it physically, I already have a lot of solutions on hand to use as and when needed. So, one can say that I spend more time pre-planning (and sometimes getting stuck there ????), but once it’s a ‘go’, there’s nothing holding me back, and there is much less disappointment. But, what I know is based on what I have already learnt in the past. There are problems that I have not encountered and solutions that I have not come up with yet. So there will always be new disappointments to learn from.
Others might do it differently. They might charge head-in and think of consequences later. That is another way of learning how not to do things. Others might not do anything at all. But not making a decision is still making a decision of not taking action, and learn from that process. Whatever we do, the results are still concrete on the material level.
So, if there is going to be disappointment anyway, my mantra is to give it a try and at least then there is no regret of not having tried. I might learn a new way of saying ‘no’, or standing up for myself, or meet new people, or learn a new skill. Who knows what might come out of that, but there is always a reward for trying.
We might be talking about Moon and Mercury and Jupiter, but really we are talking about it’s effects in and on our body. The complexities of relationship between these three helps understand the complexities of their interaction within our body.
Intuition is a feminine quality, but without logic there is no balance. Otherwise you would not have been questioning yourself. It is only when intuition and logic work together that things come to fruition.
I remember one avastha video I saw long back, maybe Sun-Venus. Ernst gave his own example of when he was setting up his woodworking space, and his inner voice said yes to that, but no to making some frames for his wife's paintings. He went ahead and tried to do both and the latter turned out to be wasted time and effort. He referred to this as his inner voice. So by that framework, I'll go ahead and describe my 'no' as an inner voice, and not intuition.
I'm not sure what the difference is in the way Ernst uses the two words. But as I think about it more, I'd say intuition is more ungrounded and not necessarily about ourselves? For example, I'm good at guessing certain planetary conjunctions and aspects that people have, when I interact with them. Even getting good at guessing people's Ra/Ke house axis by observing/interacting with them. I suppose that is intuition because I'm not sure exactly where I'm pulling that info from. (Obviously, I say this because I was able to confirm whether my hunch was right in those cases). The logical part here is the astrological framework...
I am not talking about chatter where each party talks but the other does not listen.
I was referring to the incessant quality of it. Even if different parts of me are politely talking to each other and discussing, it is still occurring under my overall self, in that I am always witnessing it. So from the perspective of my witnessing self, it is kind of endless... in a long-term sense. A bit like Vikram-Betaal stories, where the Betaal escapes each time and the whole thing starts again (do you know it?).
So I think of it as temporary or illusory peace because the whole thing will have to be repeated again, for a different scenario or question.
And yes, sometimes doing something a bit (in real) helps us know whether to do it or not. But we don't always have the luxury of that if other people are involved, that's how I feel about it anyway. If I commit to it, I'll try to do it irrespective of anything... so I prefer to be careful about it before itself.
I do not think true intuition is ungrounded. Intuition and inner voice is probably the same thing. Question is how developed is our intuition and how much can we trust it.
Except yogis, I believe most of us only have partially developed intuition if at all. It is very hard to hear the inner voice unless we are balanced in head and heart. I see the avasthas course from Ernst as a way to move to balance.
I once thought about this before the avasthas course was started and came up with a definition for myself haha
intuition = 0.5*(logic + true feelings) : logic = masculine part; true feelings = feminine part
For the thread question:
I agree to Ernst's answer to try what is coming in our head, and compare the results.
For me personally, when something comes to my head, I try to make one check to see if it is coming from my moods. Otherwise I follow it.
It is much more easier I think to try in easy situations than in more serious situations. For ex:, I was craving a healthy dinner and ordered a veggie pho soup with brocolli, veggeis, etc. Something was telling me no on that day. I ordered it anyway and a root got stuck between my teeth when I was eating lol. After that I started listening to it every time haha.
For more serious situations, normally there is more time, I try meditation or prayer,...
I think true intuition or intuition that has a spiritual basis shouldn't really be about our personal feelings, true or not. It's ungrounded in the sense that it has no basis upon our ego or individual feelings and thoughts, or shouldn't, so it can seem like it has no justification.. like it's coming from thin air (even if it's not).
Moreover, even when we give justification via astrology etc.. it's actually a pretty irrational logic.
I'll give an example of one person I know, who I think has a very trained intuition. She once trained/taught me a meditative practice... she mentioned to me that she was only going to teach it to 5-6 people she knew very well, but later on, her intuition told her to teach it to me as well, among a few others. So I'd say, she has reached a point where she can make a distinction between her personal feelings and vision which are linked to our own existence/body/emotions/ego versus a more detached seeing/knowing, which can be termed intuition, even though they both do exist.
I think intuition is like that even when it is less developed, but it gets laced and coloured with personal emotions, feelings and insecurities, and even a personal sense of morality to a great deal, and needs to be purified over time.
And well, maybe the inner voice is the same as intuition. I'm honestly not very clear about the terminology now. Why have a separate term if it is the same?
I understand what you mean about the incessant quality of the chatter. I experience it when it has to do with Ketu. I am getting better at not engaging in it, and allowing the planets to have a time-out to sort out their own issues before allowing them to talk to each other. If the bind continues, then they go back in time-out.
To explain it further, each planet is carrying a wound. If they talk to each other from a wounded place, there is a stalemate because they want the other one to give in. If they are talking from a healed place, they are willing to listen to each other, set down boundaries depending on what is important to them and compromising where it’s not important, and then see which way they want to move forward together.
Even if other people are involved, they are really a mirror of what is happening inside us. If my moon is feeling needy, I don’t get people who would help fulfill that need, instead I get people who are needy. Then, because I understand their neediness, I give, which in this case is the wrong thing to do.
You are right in saying that intuition is ungrounded. Hence it needs to have the grounded-ness of logic. I think of inner voice as the wisdom of Jupiter - so quiet you can hardly hear it, blending in with each breath we take. That wisdom is being filtered through the Moon’s feelings and emotions, which becomes intuition. But how clear is that intuition, and does it mirror the inner wisdom or is it showing what needs to be healed?
The Moon is our connection to everything. But the Moon is also our individuation. The need to connect to others is just as strong as understanding the need of others to connect. Which one is at play when intuition speaks? If we take it in chronological order, is it from Moon’s neediness or from Mar’s logic or Mercury’s unbiased experimentation or Jupiter’s wisdom? So there are a couple planets to traverse before the Moon connects with Jupiter. But again, how good is Jupiter?
In your example, you already have a past example of a similar project fizzling out. The words you used were “I don’t feel like wasting time”. So emotions have already gotten attached to the outcome. If those emotions were not present, you would have said either ‘yes’ or ‘no’ straight away, and not asked for time to get back to the person.
If there are negative emotions like guilt or anger or bitterness, there is the push-pull of Rahu-Ketu involved. Whichever way you choose, the end result will be about understanding and accepting that individuation and about the Moon’s neediness. Or you might be able to find a creative middle way that lies somewhere between a ‘no’ and a ‘yes’.
Whatever decision you make, a solid acceptance needs to be there without any biased emotions involved, otherwise a similar incident will reappear to try to get the emotions to dissipate. Hence, my suggestion to dissect the previous incident to see whether it was the Moon or Mars or Mercury who did not get a say in the matter. Once that acknowledgement is there, the push-pull will disappear, and you will have a clear answer.
If you can’t get a clear answer, then accept your ‘no’ and see where it leads. Doing something concrete always makes things clearer.
To explain it further, each planet is carrying a wound.
yes, that is my point 🙂
I did get a clear answer i.e. 'no', but I'm not entirely sure 'which self' it was from, hence my question.
In your example, you already have a past example of a similar project fizzling out. The words you used were “I don’t feel like wasting time”. So emotions have already gotten attached to the outcome. If those emotions were not present, you would have said either ‘yes’ or ‘no’ straight away, and not asked for time to get back to the person.
true.. Hmm. I think, "I don't feel like wasting time" was a rather dry emotion that I was expressing here. In truth, the way I was asked for the request, made me feel like they didn't really value it. It had this flavour of, "well this person is here, so let's just ask/use her".
On the other hand, what am I expecting, a fanfare? Get real, Leela! lol.
Moreover, I could be imagining that I wasn't being valued. Hence, the doubt.
When I said other people are involved, I just meant that if I say yes or no involves other people, so I can't just randomly change my mind later.
Hence, my suggestion to dissect the previous incident to see whether it was the Moon or Mars or Mercury who did not get a say in the matter.
There wasn't an issue as such, but it was something about which I had reached a point of view that I'm done with it, don't want to do again. Maybe it wasn't my Jupiter.
But this whole thing could be my fault. I was.. getting nostalgic for that past time period and imagined it, wondering if I should do it again.. and the damn thing actually sprang up ????
I was.. getting nostalgic for that past time period and imagined it, wondering if I should do it again.. and the damn thing actually sprang up
???? ???? ????
I would follow that ‘not feeling valued’ feeling. We set our own value and our concept of value changes as we get older. I found that the feeling of not being valued is actually an inner projection. It is parts inside of us that is not feeling valued or validated by us, and has now come up for healing.
So, even though you are clear in your feelings about this situation, I wonder if there is an underlying feeling of failure that has got attached to the earlier incident even though it wasn’t your fault.
I found that the feeling of not being valued is actually an inner projection.
That's true.. but then, we also attract people into our lives who show us how we feel about ourselves, which is to say they may actually not be valuing us too. A bit of both.
I wonder if there is an underlying feeling of failure that has got attached to the earlier incident even though it wasn’t your fault.
That's definitely there, which I guess is what makes it hard to hear the true voice to begin with. Dunno how to make that go away though. Kinda sucks that this thing I used to love and be inspired by, became a vehicle through which to experience and churn my difficult avasthas. It tainted it, sulky as that sounds. 🙂
we also attract people into our lives who show us how we feel about ourselves, which is to say they may actually not be valuing us too. A bit of both.
True. I guess the more we remove the blocks that stop us from valuing ourself, the less we encounter people who don’t value us. Or our energy gets better at repelling them.
Sulk as much as you want. I am in a similar kind of a boat with an issue where I can’t go back and I can’t move forward. There is something that is not clear enough or I don’t want to face or the time is not right yet. We can sulk together and wait until the energy changes and something shifts ????
i would say trust your instinct, your inner voice....
tuyet