Hi Staffan and friends,
Hearing is one of the 5 Senses and the system is generously explained by Mr. Wilhelm in the 5 Elements course as well as in the Graha Sutras book.
The 5 Elements are known as the Pancha Tattvas, 5 True Essences. They are the 5 primordial cause of all that is created.
Each Pancha Tattva has a Sattvic attribute ruled by one of the 5 Starry planets. Also known as Jnan(en)driyas -organs of knowledge.
Ether element is ruled by Jupiter which is hearing and he acquires knowledge from Sound.
Air element ruled by Saturn, is responsible for carrying the Sound.
Each Pancha Tattva has a Rajasic attribute known as the Karmendriyas -organs of action.
Ether ruled by Jupiter is Sound and its primary power is the vocal cords.
Jupiter is responsible for producing sound, which is produced in the vocal cords.
For a person to be unable to produce sound-> they have to have their Jupiter afflicted.
However, to have speech defect we need to check their Mercury affliction. (Also, there is a sutra in Jaimini to check for speech defect)
Regarding your 8th lord being debilitated; A lord being DB is just one thing, it means it is the furthest away from its EX point, meaning its Uccha Bala is low. We need to check whether that graha is receiving any help from its friends to cover for any possible starvation it is getting, in the Lajjitaadi Avasthas table. Additionally, if that Graha’s Dig Bala and Chestha Bala are good, it means that, that Lord has the potential to fulfill its role.
Now, as you are inquiring Listening, which could be something mental and differentiating from Hearing.
The Moon is the Manas, which is the Mind that experiences. Through Manas, all 5 Senses are experienced. In experiencing them we are receptive to the qualities of creation. Manas consists of Jiva -the living consciousness, and Ahamkara -the idea of separate existence.
The Jiva is the living being of consciousness that experiences the creation through the 5 Senses.
Mercury, the son of the Moon, is the Consciousness Spoken-> the verbal expression of what is in our consciousness.
During the Dasa of a healthy Jupiter, the person will be more receptive to wisdom, guidance and instruction (listening).
So, in my opinion, we need to analyze "listening" through studying the conditions of the Moon, Mercury and Jupiter.
Thank you for bringing up such a great topic.
Zumrut
@zumrutd Thank, very well explained. Yes, I remember this from that course - well, not all the details, maybe I didn´t listen well enough...
Still wondering whether the 8th house also could carry any information about listening, but it´s more about wanting to have the beauty of the idea of opposite houses having opposite meanings confirmed, like the 2nd being one own´s money and the 8th being other people´s money. Because if that is a general rule we could use it to draw many conclusions from the idea of opposition. Which we of course can, I just wonder to what degree. I think that as rule - and this I´m pretty sure that Ernst has expressed - we should see opposite house as one house, in a way. Like the ascendant and the 7th house being the same, in a way, with the difference that the 7th house more represents the hidden part of ourselves, the one´s that we see as a projection on the other person. So I guess that my idea about the 8th house as a listening house could be seen as a test for that idea; how far should we take it?
Staffan
Dear Staffan Hi,
Your idea is wonderful, and I agree with you. The opposing axes are simply two ends of the same stick, illustrating how everything is interconnected.
The ears are related to the 2nd house, according to the New Rasi Sutras. What comes into our ears is significant, similar to what enters and exits through our mouths—such as food, speech, and the act of smelling and breathing. The 8th house, being the opposite end of the stick, is inherently connected to this. The 2nd house represents Artha (worth) and Panaphara (security), while the 8th house is Moksha (freedom from material concerns) and Panaphara (security). It's about maintaining a balance—not becoming too attached to material offerings, yet not entirely cutting oneself off from them.
In Ernst Wilhelm's book "Vault of the Heavens," hearing and ears are assigned to the 3rd house. Despite this being written many years ago, and acknowledging potential future revisions, Mr. Wilhelm chooses to keep it as it is. I respect and find meaning in this stance. With Bhavad Bhavam, the 3rd house is the 2nd house of the 2nd house, hence deeply connected to the 2nd house and its outcomes.
In the New Rasi Sutras course, Mr. Wilhelm explains the Rasis in relation to the body parts they represent. The natural 2nd house is Taurus, which corresponds to the face and neck area. This region encompasses essential organs and glands like the eyes, nose, sinuses, ears, parathyroid, thyroid, and thymus. Taurus signifies the fulfillment of our needs, with the face housing four of the five major sense organs (eyes, tongue, nose, ears). These senses provide pleasure and alert us to environmental dangers, helping us survive. The face also contains the mouth, crucial for nourishment and respiration. Thus, Taurus fundamentally represents sustenance and survival.
Conversely, the natural 8th house is Scorpio, representing the external sexual organs and the anus according to the New Rasi Sutras. These are vulnerable areas not protected by bone or flesh, symbolizing vulnerabilities. This body part should be used judiciously; overuse can lead to destruction. Trying to fulfill our needs in the things that are only meant to be done occasionally at the right place. You want to keep your covered parts covered (unless occasionally).
Connecting your point about the axis, we eat and drink (2nd house) and then expel waste (8th house) after absorbing nutrients. We have families (2nd house) that eventually pass away, leaving legacies (8th house). We take and receive (2nd house) and then learn to let go (8th house), experiencing freedom from the material. We serve as resources for our responsibilities (2nd house) and should be open to being cared for (8th house), as 7th house the partner’s 2nd house is our 8th house. We listen and speak (2nd house) and should also listen to our inner voice, contemplating in silence (8th house). Both ends of the stick must remain balanced.
Regarding the axis of the Mother and Father, it is confusing for me. Traditionally, the 4th house represents the Mother and the 9th house the Father –so it is not the opposite axis. The 9th house also encompasses parents in general, with the Father often seen as the leading parent. The 10th house signifies the Father's influence and status on us. For the Father's physical condition, we consider the 9th house for the analysis. Understanding these axes as opposites can be tricky but is a useful practice.
Thank you
Zumrut
@zumrutd A beautiful presentation, of course I have heard all this, but put together like this it really makes sense.
Staffan
I like your analysis. U analyze it using planets instead of houses…
tuyet
Dear Tuyet Hi,
Thank you for your comment. I would like to mention why I was concentrated more on the Grahas than the Rasis.
As we all know, Lord Vishnu is considered to be the absolute image of God manifesting Himself as the entire universe and everything in it -as stated in the Brihat Parashara Hora Sastra (BPHS),
The planets are considered to be divinely "conscious" manifestations of Vishnu. The embodied planets are the Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn, and the unembodied "Shadow Planets" are Rahu and Ketu.
There are also unconscious manifestations of Vishnu. These are the 12 Rasis of the zodiac.
The Planets, as conscious beings, rule over the unconscious signs and are therefore they are the lords of the Rasis. As conscious producers, the planets influence the Bhavas, which are unconscious entities where the planets and Nakshatras produce and activate results.
The Grahas and Bhavas work together; neither can function in their roles without the other. I wanted to write about the Houses to Staffan yesterday, but I aimed to keep my message short to avoid being overly lengthy and possibly boring. 🙂
Thank you
Zumrut
@zumrutd I agree. Astrology is fascinating to me. It is both a science and an art. The more courses i take the more i realize the vastness of astrology and how you can analyze the same question from different perspectives, different techniques, different angles ect... and of course, there is that intuitiveness side of it all too... Happy Learning!
tuyet
With that said... I´m still convinced that the 8th house has to do with listening, the capacity for paying attention and recieve information. Because of how the system works. Opposites houses are mirrors, and capacity or listening is the mirror of speach. So to my understanding, it has to be so. Also I have gotten a confirmation for that in an all about orthodox way that I don´t expect anyone else to believe, but for me it´s clear: 3rd and 11th for hearing, one house for each ear, and 8th for actually listening. I´m sure about it, but again: I don´t expect anyone to follow.
Staffan
I liked your original idea and it makes sense to me. I'm going to explain my own experience and my own chart, for whatever that is worth.
I have always felt that I am a good listener. I actually like to listen, and can sometimes find it hard to speak...though that really depends on the situation.
My Asc is Libra, my Mars is in Cancer, so my 2nd lord is debilitated. In the 8th house I have the Moon and Mercury.
I can speak, but I prefer to listen. I'm inclined to wonder if Mercury in the 8th inhibits his speech? Though the Moon is there too, which seems like it would be a better listener in general. Additionally, my 8th lord is in the 9th (with Sun and Jupiter). I've always felt that listening is an important part of my purpose here in some way. I really enjoy listening to people's experiences of themselves and the world (usually, not always ;).
So that's an anecdote that might be related to your thought.
@j0sh4rp3 That´s very interesting, thank you. After writing this I was also pondering on the fact that the 8th house is seen as the house of the ockult. And that is very much related to listening, of course. To pick up the subtile signals from hidden sources, so to speak - it seems very close to capacity for listening, I believe. Of course the planets - in this case especially Venus I suppose - have to be good too for a person to be good at understanding the not so obvious.
Staffan
Hi Staffan,
this is the extract from Vaults of the Heavens
"Though the 2nd house represents speech, speech alone is not communication therefore the 3rd house rules hearing, which is necessary for communication."
So, using your idea of opposition, for hearing shouldn't you be looking to the 9th house?
sorry if that complicates even more everything hehe
@jarot The physical capacity for hearing yes, but listening and understanding is something else, don´t you think?
Staffan
@staffan oooh sorry I miss that differentiation
as a moksha house you meant,
yes, comtemplation to liberation
So to conclude this - I write it here so that everyone who has participated in the discussion might see it, in case you are interested.
I believe that the 8th house is the house of the ockult b e c a u s e it indicates the capacity for listening and understanding. That´s my interpretation, following the logic of the opposite houses. Where there is beauty in astrology - like the houses mirroring each other, there is also truth, I believe. It´s a system based on logic, and there is beauty in logic. Hearing is seen from the 3rd and the 11th, but that only refers to the physical capactiy for hearing.
Staffan