Hi Ernst,
In the Lajjitadi Avastha course, for shamed Saturn, you mentioned:
"When the shame is due to Ketu, the individual is hypersensitive and aware of the weaknesses of their afflicted Saturn to such a degree that Saturn becomes absolutely debilitated, which is to say that the individual has no capacity for bearing hardships or burdens and thus feels ashamed of what little they can do. These weaknesses will often be hidden by the individual."
I have Saturn/Mars/Ketu all in Gemini (9th house, Libra asc), so Saturn is starved by Mars and shamed by Mars/Ketu. While Mercury is delighting Saturn as its lord, Venus is also aspecting it to 29 points. Further, Sun and Moon are both aspecting it to 30 points as well.
But my experience in Saturn antardasas is quite far removed from the shaming effect you mentioned. Every Saturn andardasa has given a very significant boost to my life and I have felt very good in those times, never felt shamed. Instead may be I felt proud even.
For example:
Moon-Saturn: I passed out of 10th grade (a significant grade in Indian schooling system) with a statewide rank that made my family feel proud and as a 14-15 year old kid I thought I was doing quite well at that time.
Mars-Saturn: I got engaged to my wife, came to USA for my Masters and it was all very exciting times in my life. But I also took couple of very advanced courses without proper pre-requisites which affected my grades a bit, but this seems to me like more of a Rahu effect than Ketu effect. The main stress was just that I came on a student loan and was doing tutoring to cover my living expenses, but by end of this period I even secured Research Associate-ship that paid my tuition and living expenses.
Rahu-Saturn: I bought my first home, got a good job offer with significant raise, and till today (after 14 years) I am with the same group, and I feel this period was bright in my life personally. Most importantly, my spiritual pursuits were initiated around this time. Though around this time, we were also dealing with my mom's initial diagnosis of Chronic Kidney Failure.
I am not able to relate my personal experience with the "Shamed Saturn" Lajjitadi Avastha. Can you please help clarify what could be going on?
Regards,
Anand
Hi Anand,
Saturn is producing yoga being an auspicious planet for Libra lagna. That should be one of the good contributing factor for the success in its antardasha.
Then you also check what is Saturn doing in d10 for the rewards and in d60 for the magnitude of rewards.
With lajjitadi avasthas, see how you felt internally for the things. Mars saturn can give lot of frustration and anger for 9th house related stuff that can burst out after being accumulated a lot and consider helpful influences to calm it down as well like Mercury is helping saturn?
Thanks, I will try to check the yoga part for Saturn in some more detail.
But regarding shamed avastha for Saturn, I am trying to correlate to:
Saturn becomes absolutely debilitated, which is to say that the individual has no capacity for bearing hardships or burdens and thus feels ashamed of what little they can do.
I have never felt this way. In fact the feeling has been quite the opposite. Can the D10 or some other yoga completely mask this shamed lajjita avastha?
Or is it due to Saturn's dig bala (9th is closer to 7th then 1st), or is it due to some shadbala related factor?
Or is amount of benefic/malefic aspect on Saturn/Ketu/9th house playing a role? I have way more benefic aspect on my 9th compared to malefic aspect (most of my malefics are in my 9th anyway 🙂 )
Regards, Anand
Saturn becomes absolutely debilitated, which is to say that the individual has no capacity for bearing hardships or burdens and thus feels ashamed of what little they can do.
I think you need to evaluate the intensity of above statement by looking at lajjitadi avasthas values of Saturn.
Also being in 9th house gives it some luck. Had this been in your lagna or involving lagna Lord or AK means self factors, it will be felt more severely. Is Mars or saturn your AK planet?
In 9th house means, these problems could be severely related with 9th house stuff like father, spiritual figures etc.. but intensity depends on checking values. You can paste lajjitadi table here based on shad bala values.
Saturn is my AK. I have not yet started using Kala software, so I do not have shadbala data.
Regards, Anand
I personally don't just look at "shame". Sometimes there could be a feeling of "guilt" or the tendency of "hiding", or feeling "inadequate" about something, without apparent valid reasons aka even when everything goes great .... That something/someone/circumstance that brings up those feelings, may be an actual great thing/person in someone's life or a bad thing/circumstance/person in their life.
If I am not mistaken, Justin Timberlake's chart has some similar Avasthas going on in his chart, if using same lord conjunctions. He has Ketu Mars Sun in an air sign Aquarius in 7th, and Saturn in an air sign Libra. He is clearly very realized and has lots to be proud of.
You know best how you've been feeling in those time periods, and if you feel like you haven't stepped into any overcompensation mode in regards to that Saturn in Gemini, then that's how it is, regardless of what texts say.
How can Aquarius and Libra make same lord conjunction? It should be Aquarius and Capricorn right?
Regards, Anand
I don't have Kala handy, his shame didn't have the same exact planets, that is why I mentioned similar. Mentioned Saturn as it is in an air sign where he loves it though. Anyways, it sounds like you're good.
Mars starving Saturn indicates the tendency to attempt to protect or fix that which is not part of one’s responsibilities – to not mind one’s own business
I have Mars/Saturn in 9th/Gemini and I can relate to above tendency, as I have been pretty driven to holding logical debates with others on spirituality, with an attitude to go where ever the truth takes us, but always logically felt that the spiritual truth has to be the oneness (non-separate ness) of the universe.
However I cannot even remotely/slightly relate to the shamed part of Saturn, even in my previous Saturn antardasas. I don't remember ever withdrawing from anything I wanted to do at physical/emotional or mental level.
I have always thought I can do whatever I wanted to do or at least try, systematically plan it out and logically put in all the efforts.
In my life, at times I have had some of my role models (9th house) named in big scandals and I personally did not feel shamed/guilty about it, instead I only used these situations for my own spiritual growth. One example is the Indian team cricket captain who I was a big fan of in my teens, but later he was named in a match fixing scandal which rocked the entire country. It emotionally disturbed me only to the extent that it taught me how I should invest my own emotions.
What I am specifically looking for is the astrological factors that may be helping me avoid the shamed Saturn symptoms, so I can understand the lajjitadi avasthas better. Could it be one of following factors?
- Saturn's friends helping it out?
- Saturn's dig bala (9th is closer to 7th then 1st)
- Saturn's shadbala
- Amount of benefic aspect on Mars/Saturn/Ketu/9th house playing a role
- Sun's avastha (My sun is exalted in 7th in D1)
Or anything else I can't think of?
Regards, Anand
So one possibility is that delight on saturn is more than the starvation which can be clear on looking lajjitadi avasthas table.
Another possibility is that others would have felt frustrated through your counselling in mars/saturn period as Gemini is a male sign and 9th house is involved?
Third possibility is both of the above are true?
I just listened to Ernst's audio explanation of Mercury delighting Saturn, and I think that's the answer. He has made it really clear there, and I realize how even one friend helping out can save a planet from further doldrums.
It made me appreciate the value of planetary friendships, as now I can understand the difference it can make in somebody's life.
>> Another possibility is that others would have felt frustrated through your counselling in >> mars/saturn period as Gemini is a male sign and 9th house is involved?
Well, its not just mars/saturn period I guess, but I very well know how fixated I have been on showing a mirror to others fixations ....
Thanks for indulging me on this topic, and to Ernst for sharing the depth of his wisdom in his classes/interviews.
How does this combination in 9th contribute to the shamed Avastha? My understanding is it has to happen in 5th house to have shame?! May be I am wrong here ?!
Sincerely
Deepak MK
Following combinations can produce a shamed avastha
- Sun, Mars or Saturn conjunct a planet in 5th house
- Sun, Mars or Saturn along with Ketu conjunct a planet in ANY house
- Sun, Mars or Saturn along with Rahu conjunct a planet in ANY house
- Sun, Mars or Saturn along with Ketu have same lord conjunction to a planet in ANY house
- Sun, Mars or Saturn along with Rahu have same lord conjunction to a planet in ANY house