Thank you Ernst for the open class yesterday. I think the reasoning about the adityas vs tropical to a degree removes the obstacles for embracing both traditions and make them work together. Just want to point that out and listen to what everyone else has to say about it.
So: Tropical would be more about the concrete manifestations in life. In that sense, more superficial. The adityas would be more about the deeper motivations, who we really are, what has to shine through us.
So if we take career as an example. Let´s say tropical astrology shows a career related to singing. Then the adityas may say whether they should work in groups, which could be indicated by for example Mitra, or rather have to shine on their own in a healthily egoistic way; Indra could indicate that. Tvastha could indicate a traditional setting or traditional preferences. Etc. Indra could even indicate that the career becomes really important, while other adityas could speak about a great need for a more balanced life with more space for family and friends, for example. As the example you mentioned, Ernst: Being an astrologer seems less important to you, from the adityas perspective, than being many people´s best friend in time of crisis through your videos, as indicated by Aryamaa.
Not that adityas can´t indicate concrete things too, so there is an overlap. But still, they seem to point out the deeper motivations in a way that are hard to find in regular, rasibased astrology.
Staffan
I don't see how you can separate the two when they will always be aligned.
The Nakshatras make complete sense to me, because you are referencing two different realms of space (the ecliptic vs. the stars). Aswini will not always be in Aries, Krittika will not always be in Taurus etc, because the Sun signs stay stationary with the path of the Sun across the ecliptic while the stars move with the procession of the Equinox.
However, the Adityas and Sun signs will always remain consistent, because both are tied to the Sun's consistent path across the Ecliptic. In Ernst's system, Dhata is always Pisces, Aryaman is always Aries etc... So that means the symbolic meanings of all Adityas are inextricably linked with their respective Rasis.
The problem then arises when you have certain Adityas' symbolic meanings directly clashing with the inherent symbolism we have learned from Parasara and Jaimini in Ernst's system. Varuna Aditya is the god of the Ocean and abundant love, that sounds like Cancer, where Jupiter is exalted. Mitra, the friend to all, sounds like Gemini who is ruled by Mercury who presides over friendships/associates. Aryaman Aditya's long-term equal partnership and commitment, sounds like the fixed earth sign Taurus to me (Venus is about equal win-win relationships). Vishnu who is all about transformation and can be manipulative when afflicted, sounds like Scorpio to me and definitely not like a Libra (Jaimini even says the 8th Rasi Scorpio is aligned with Vishnu).
I understand that the rebuttal to this is that they are separate, but how can they be perceived as separate when they always take up the same portion of space? A Pisces will always have Dhata qualities, Aries will always Aryaman qualities etc... because they take up the same 30 degress forever.
Even in your example with Ernst, his dynamic sounds more like Dhata Aditya than Aryaman. Our relationship with Ernst is not equal; he is our teacher/guide/guru/spiritual supporter (depending on your perspective), not our best friend or long-term partner. We are all here because he provides incredible value that supports our specific needs in life. The vast majority of us have never even met him in person or know what he is like offline, and the very same is true in the opposite direction. He appears to play the role of Astrology/Spiritual Professor. I personally see Ernst as someone who is providing support to all of us through his incredible work and wisdom, but perceiving him as a "best friend" seems quite parasocial to me.
With all that said, I did not attend the Live Course, so I am very open to anyone who believes I have missed something or am misguided in my analysis.
Have you been studying the planetary lords of the Adityas? Ernst hasn't explicitly taught them, but in the live class he did sort of "hint", I think, that Kala shows the lords correctly for Adityas...and what you said about them is precisely what appears to be happening.
In the first class, he was saying that the important part is the space itself, and that we have all these symbols that can go with the space, but the important thing is the astronomical fact of the space itself. It seems that aligns with what you are saying.
@josh No, I am referencing the lords of the signs that overlay each Aditya (Dhata aligns with Pisces (Jupiter), Aryaman with Aries (Mars), Taurus (Venus) with Mitra, etc...).
However, I am watching the live class, and it has become clear that Ernst is completely throwing out the Jaimini and Parasara systems (Rasis), along with all other forms of Astrology, to create a completely new Astrological system (Ernst Original). In his system, the same 30 degrees of space that we thought was ruled by a planet or had certain symbolic meanings has apparently been wrong this entire time.
This is fine now that I know what he's doing, and it makes sense because he's just doing something completely new. He is creating a whole new system that has no precedence or historical basis. This is coming directly from the mind of Ernst Wilhelm, and nobody else in history. It's very interesting, but we must realize that this is his own creation, completely separate from what anyone has ever created in history.
It's essentially his version of Ra Uru Hu's Human Design. An original thing that will incorporate many traditional Astrological techniques.
I thought it was interesting, because it seems that Mitra is ruled by Mercury, Varuna by Moon where Jupiter is exalted, and Aryama by Venus, which aligns with what you were saying...so Taurus is ruled by Venus, but Mitra by Mercury, etc.
Ernst has been saying all along that this system has a historical basis, which is why all of it is referencing the Puranas and Indian mythology, so I don't think we can say it is completely new and coming only from his mind. There are in fact other people who work with Adityas, though not in the same way; certainly this formulation is unique to him, but not the overall idea.
He also is not throwing out Jaimini or Parashara. He isn't using Aries, Taurus, Gemini, etc. but he is using Jaimini aspects, Jaimini karakas, Lajjitaadi Avasthas, etc., etc., it is just that the signs, and thus the lords, modalities, elements, symbolism, etc. don't quite align with tropical. That is the main difference.
I'll just mention, because I was studying the topic for a while, that the case of HD and Ra Uru Hu is an interesting one. Based on my research, I believe that Ra did in fact "receive" a revelation, something that he wouldn't have ever been able to come up with on his own, namely, the alignment of the I Ching Wheel to the tropical zodiac and the bodygraph. I don't believe for a second that he in any formulated that from his own mind, or that any human could, i.e., out of own's intellect. However, in my opinion, Type, Strategy, Authority, etc. is all from the mind of Ra...I think all of that is his attempt to interpret what he received (and I don't think it is very accurate or useful, but that is another topic).
@josh I agree that the lordship order makes sense to me as well (Mitra (Gemini) is ruled by Mercury, Varuna (Cancer) by Moon, where Jupiter is exalted, and Aryama (Taurus) by Venus). And that would line up with the Adityas perfectly aligning with the Tropical Zodiac. But Ernst is shifting everything back.
Yes, the Adityas do have a historical basis, but his interpretations and the way he is using them are completely new and original. He even said that there is a lot of contradictory and missing information when it comes to the Adityas, so he had to essentially do his own analysis/interpretations to fill in the gaps.
At the 40-minute mark into "The Live Questions and Answers Class 1" video (you may look for yourself), he claims that he didn't learn from the stories, but instead learned what he had learned first, and then used the stories as a vehicle for his own original creation. The system of Adityas is not original in and of itself, but that wasn't the initial point. All I am saying is that the system itself has been created by Ernst, no one else.
He is throwing out Jaimini and Parasara's Rasi symbology with his own form of Aditya symbology, which was my original point if you look back. He believes the same 30 degrees of space means something entirely different, and affects planets differently than do the Jaimini and Parasara systems. That's a big deal. It means he disagrees with them on how to calculate Yogas, Dignities, all of the Avasthas, and Rahu/Ketu meanings, lordship, and even Shad Bala will now have to be calculated completely differently.
Thank you for sharing the information you had about Ra, that was interesting.
Yes, I recall him saying he developed the astronomy that the Adityas use first, and then realized that the Adityas lined up with it. He also said the important thing is the space itself, and that we can use many different symbols to that space; doesn't necessarily mean they are inherently contradictory.
I think of this as Ernst shining a light, rather than being "his own original creation". Likewise, it doesn't seem to me that his actually throwing out the symbology of the zodiac; he is focusing on Adityas, but not abandoning rashis as a system in the same he way did sidereal...but I guess this is all a matter of perspective, about what we understand, how we understand it, and what we think that it means. Which is to say, that I don't really agree with you, but that's OK because who knows really? I'm just along for the ride and enjoy thinking about things like this.
"But Ernst is shifting everything back." Yes, exactly. With the Adityas, the summer solstice starts at Indra; Indra is ruled by the Sun, so with the Adityas, the northern solstice, the highest point of the Sun, is ruled by the Sun. The same space that is called Cancer in tropical and ruled by the Moon is called Indra in Adityas and ruled by the Sun. It means that in Adityas, Jupiter is exalted in Varuna, which is the space we call "Gemini" in tropical...at least, that's what I understood by looking at Kala, and it makes sense, especially to have the Sun rule the northern solstice.
@josh Yes, and his symbology for the different pieces of space contradicts the Parasara and Jaimini symbology for those same pieces of space. For example, saying that Saturn does well in what Jaimini/Parasara would call Aries (What Ernst calls Aryama), or saying Jupiter does well in what Jaimini/Parasara would call Gemini (what Ernst calls Varuna). There may be some overlap, but if you shift the entire Zodiac, there will be contradictions.
He said that he is no longer using the original Rasi system and is only using Adityas now. He is replacing the Aditya system as he believes it is "closer to the truth" (his exact words). He even compared this transition to the time that he went from Sidereal to Tropical.
So yes, he is doing the exact same thing he did with Sidereal and moving on to an entirely different system of Astrology that he has been personally developing over the last couple of decades.
We can very much agree to disagree, nothing wrong with that all my friend.
Well, Ernst hasn't provided the rulerships just yet, so that is TBD. That's a fine way of thinking about it, but that contradicts what has been taught by Parasara and Jaimini.
@thealchemist I don't see it as contradicting what Parasara or Jaimini instructed. First Jaimini didn't use Aries, Taurus, Gemini etc. He used numbers (first Rasi, second Rasi etc) At least that is how I've understood it from the translations of the original Sanskrit. We have used those names because that's what we have been conditioned to do. So as I'm understanding is that this is strictly concerning the astronomy of where to start the count of the Rasis - where to start the circle. The truth (that I see) is that there's no way to know exactly where to start a circle, you just start the circle and keep going from there. I could draw a circle starting from the bottom as much as I can draw one starting from the top - that is the subjective part. But then the objective part is that they are both circles. Once the circle is drawn, it's hard to know where it started. This reminds me of the age-old question "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" 🙂
I wonder if he is going to tell us that "rats and cats" has to do with Dhata? :)...the sutras are so terse that we can probably read anything into them that we want.
@suzanstars They are contradictory, because Ernst is replacing the old Rasi system with his new Aditya chart full of new symbology for the same 30 degrees of space. He is also moving the Zodiac back based on the Chinese calendar, which again contradicts Jaimini and Parasara, who were calculating the signs starting at the Vernal Equinox (at least this is what I learned from Ernst himself). And yes, I am very aware that he didn't use those terms, but what is relevant is the inherent symbology for each 30 degrees of space, not the surface-level names.
I am not saying what he is doing is wrong; who am I to say what is legitimate or not? However, it is clear that we are experiencing a conspicuous case of Deja Vu. Ernst replaces the Sidereal zodiac with the Tropical zodiac. And now he is replacing the Tropical Zodiac with the Aditya Zodiac. In his mind, these are not complementary systems but instead a move towards "more truth". He makes this quite clear in the Live Session Q/A videos.
I thought Parashara put Chitra star in the middle of Chitra nakshatra and started Libra there? Since Chitra represents the manifested Shakti and the (non-existent) Aries point the unmanifested Shiva...That's what Andrew Foss says anyway...
@josh Interesting, I have not personally heard this. I have only learned from Ernst, and he has used Tropical. But it is clear that he has now moved away from the Tropical calculations for his Adityas.
The Adityas are tropical, just start at a different place. It is explained in the new Planetary Lords video.
@josh "Just starting a different place" means it's completely different. That's like saying, Sidereal Zodiac is Tropical, it just starts at a different place.
"tropical" means it is based on the solstices and equinoxes, which the adityas are, thus they are tropical.
@josh Now we're getting into semantics that are irrelevant to the topic at hand. The whole point is that the chart has fundamentally changed, which means everything has changed completely.
In my chart, Jupiter goes from being OH conjunct N Mars, to EX Mars with DB Jupiter. And my ascendant is no longer ruled by Venus, it's Mars now with Vishnu. My Saturn goes from F sign to DB in Dhata. These two charts completely contradict each other. You can't use them both because they say conflicting things.
It also means all the lordships completely change as well. So my Sun in the 2nd his no longer my 11th lord, it's my 10th lord, which changes things. Now all the Yogas need to be changed.
That has been my whole point. What he is doing now directly contradicts what he has taught in the past 2 decades. And it contradicts Jaimini and Parasara based on what he has taught (claiming that they had their chart start at Aries Vernal Equinox).
Again, I am not saying he's wrong or what he's doing may not turn out to be the next evolution of Astrology. But it must be understood that this is a death of the old and new way of calculating and interpreting charts.
Saying simply that it is completely contradictory and conflicts with everything he has said before doesn't take into account an actual understanding of what exactly he is doing or why he is doing it. We need to consider the whole issue holistically, in all its complexity...which it is, very complex. But it seems you are convinced and dead set against considering it another way. The two charts may or mat not contradict each other, but that does not mean that it contradicts his teaching of the past 2 decades. All the foundational concepts and techniques are still there; the ground on which they are taking place is shifting.
What I'm suggesting is that rather than simply assuming they are completey contradictory because they look different, perhaps consider that they represent a shift rather than a rejection, which might also include a reevaluation of yourself and who you (think you) are.
@josh, I would not say that it conflicts with every single thing he has taught previously, but when it comes to many indications involving Rasis, then yes, it does. Especially when it comes to Lajjitaadi Avasthas by telling us what the planet does in different Signs.
What do you mean by "may or may not contradict each other"? I just pointed out how the two different chart calculations directly contradict each other, just by using Yogas and Dignity. For example, if I say your Sun is in Aries and you say your Sun is in Pisces, we are contradicting each other.
Yes, the foundational teachings and principles still very much apply; we are not in disagreement there at all.
You can call it a shift/transformation/evolution/transition, again, it's all semantics. I am not assuming they are contradictory because they "look" different. I am pointing out the contradictions because the two charts fundamentally mean different things (Dignity is the simplest example). Ernst only uses the Adityas now and doesn't use the Tropical chart.
I find the whole concept fascinating and will test it out with my chart and other charts as well. I think you may be misunderstanding me. I am not saying that I reject this new "shift". I am going to observe it for myself to see how it applies. But we must understanding that this is a process of throwing out the old to bring in the new. Tropical and Aditya systems are not complementary, they are distinct.
P.S The way he talks about the Aditya charts in the lordship video sounds identical to how he talked about how he preferred Tropical zodiac over Sidereal. We've already seen this movie before.
@thealchemist where exactly is Ernst contradicting Jaimini? Which sutra are you referring to?
@karinia, I am referring to what I learned from Ernst, which is that the Vedic system calculated the 1st Rasi (Aries) starting at the Vernal Equinox.
Ernst is using the Chinese Zodiac calculation by starting it 1 month earlier, which I highly doubt Jaimini used.
However, I will admit this is something that we don't currently know for certain. So it appears then that Ernst is simply contradicting himself.
@thealchemist i also learned Jaimini from Ernst and he goes through each sutra and so if you are saying he contradicts Jaimini then there must be a sutra that he contradicts. Which one is it? I am just trying to use logic here 😊
@karinia I am using Ernst's logic, because he has taught Jaimini using Tropical Rasis for the the last 2 decades. He has also made the claim that traditional Vedic astrologers used Tropical Rasis, which is why he has been using them. Now he is using the Chinese Zodiac to calculate his Aditya chart.
I don't believe that there is a direct quote where Jaimini ever distinctly tells us where to place Rasi 1, or where to start the Zodiac. So I was wrong in asserting that Ernst is contradicting Jaimini, we don't know this for certain. Therefore, we can simply say that Ernst is contradicting his previous teachings on Jaimini by using a whole new Zodiac once again. The first time was his switch from Sidereal to Tropical.
@josh my guess on lordships is that they have been shifted over by one. Jupiter rules Pisces turns to Aries rules dhaataa and the others as you say. I haven’t gotten past Indra though
I like how you're actually thinking about it. I wasn't even thinking about it, just waiting for Ernst to tell us! 🙂
@thealchemist I´m traveling and don´t have time nor to read to respond much right now. But as for the "friend" reasoning, it refers to a an observation that Ernst made himself in relation to Aryaman; that several persons have told him that during hard times, covid isolation etc, have told him that he, through his videos, has been their only company during long periods of time. Being their best and only friend. But yes, it sounds just as much as a dhata manifestation, I agree.
Now please wish me a pleasant journey; 18 hours on a bus. 🙂
Staffan
It's no surprise that we are getting to a more critical part of the course during eclipse season especially this lunar eclipse which is about foundations, and I am talking about things that are rocking astrological foundations. I will be back to making new vids tomorrow and will probably start with lordships. The 2 live videos are now posted.
I haven’t listened to the second live yet. Did he say to use tropical for concrete and Aditya for the deeper motivation?
I wonder if someone has discovered the secret trick Ernst has put in his courses ? I think this is a good test to see who actually test the technique he teach and not just trust blindly what the teachers say. Open your eyes guys. Because some stuffs you haven't been aware of yet. I think he wasn't joking in the first Live Video, what he said, listen very carefully. This is will turn around your mind when you realize this.
I certainly haven't. I can tend to literal-mindedness; sometimes I have insights and can see beyond, but I tend to want to know the rules. I was hesitant about studying astrology for this reason because I know astrology requires more than that. But it is actually one of the reasons I should study astrology, to build that "muscle". It is something I'm learning and working on.
When Ernst says things, I usually understand him (at least, the obvious meaning), but would I have ever arrived at that understanding by myself? It is hard to say and something that I'm working on.