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sharonsegall
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i am busy watching the video lord of rashi in the new rashi sutras.

one of moon's enemies as described by ernst is ,venus , but moon is exalted in taurus which ruler is venus. any explanation how to make sense of the interaction of friends enemy and how to know who is enemy or friend .also how to know based on enemy or friend what happens when enemy goes to the enemy sign (sign which ruled by ones enemy ) how to determine if he this planet dignity. as i mentioned above moon is enemy to Venus (as stated)but moon exalted in taurus which venus its lord. a specific answer to that case would be appreciated but also a general rull system one can work with in consistency for all planets and sign 

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Angela W
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Hi Sharon,

Have you watched video 12 of the "Jyotish Building Blocks" series yet? Ernst explains the natural relationships of the planets in this video. In "Graha Sutras" (and probably in some manuals on this website) you'll find a table that shows the relationships between the planets. These relationships don't always go both ways, as you rightly pointed out. Some planets are exalted in an neutral planet's sign. Some planets are debilitated in a friend's sign (Mars in Cancer).

Why that is and what effects you get from a planet being in a friend's, a neutral planet's, or an enemy's sign is a pretty complex topic. You can either look at the psycho-social, emotional, experiential effects that will give or what habits a person will have based on that (Lajjitaadi Avashtas) or what the concrete thing the person will have in their life is (Jaimini).

Before you can do all that, you'll really need a strong foundation though. So I'd really recommend finishing the Jyotish Building Blocks section 🙂 . I think Ernst created that section so we'd all get an introduction to the basics (before being able to delve into the beginner's section even). It takes a while to get through, but it's worth it and will answer a lot of the questions that you have (I know it did for me).

Angela

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Mona
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Actually, the moon has no enemy so moon is an enemy to Venus but Venus is not an enemy to the Moon.

The natural friendships rules are determined by the positions to each other’s. I believe it’s the 2nd, 12th, 5th, 9th, 4th and 8th to each other’s that determine friendships, others are enemies (so Taurus is exaltation for Moon and Libra is 6th from Moolatrikona Taurus so Venus becomes neutral to the Moon because it has both an enemy and friend position in relationship to the Moon-ruled sign)

that being said, when it comes to exaltation and debilitation, I tend to focus more on the sign itself. The Moon is how we perceive and “feel” the world. It tends to do better in the comfort driven, nurturing sign of Taurus and not so well in the deep sometimes dark feeling world of Scorpio.

hope that helps clarify

mona 

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sharonsegall
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@mona

according to that video moon is enemy to Venus and it affects Venus expression negatively,  when in libra (venus sign ),but not in taurus ( venus sign as well) as he exalted there,  hence helps Venus expression in the chart.

Venus is enemy to the moon so when in cancer it affect the expression of moon negatively in the chart.  thats how things explained which kind of very confusing.

when it comes to mars saturn is an enemy to mars( infect ernst said that when they are together they starve each other) , so when saturn in mars signs (gamini, virgo) mars has negative exasperation in the chart,

but when mars in saturn signs (cap, aqu)he is neutral there and so doesn't affect his expression in the chart. so those two planets starve each other which mean it works both ways but then when he explain the part on saturn its not really working both ways???????????????? so i am not really understanding why statements been made the when a situation is explained it doesn't match the statement made to that planet.

 

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Dr. Rajan
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@sharonsegall

Regarding Mars and Saturn:

 

  • Mars is enemy to Saturn but Saturn is neutral to Mars (note: Mars exalts in Saturn sign)
  • So, whether Saturn is with Mars or in sign of Mars or aspected by Mars, Saturn will be starved
  • Now, Mars gets starved by Saturn only in case of conjunction because as a special case, Saturn starves any planet conjunct with it, irrespective of whether Saturday is enemy, neutral or even friend to it. Like Saturn even starves Venus when they are conjunct

Regarding Venus and Moon

  • Moon is enemy to Venus and Moon in any case doesn't have any enemy; Venus is neutral to Moon (moon also exalts in Venua sign)
  • So Venus gets starved by Moon by being in Cancer, or being conjunct or aspected by Moon
  • Moon doesn't get starved by Venus in any combination

 

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Mona
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@rajan Yes, very clear! @sharonsegall Some people say the Moon has enemies but is an enemy to no one. I think this is based on some mythology. I don't follow that and I don't believe Ernst does (though he may have brought it up in some of his old videos, I don't recall). And, when it comes to natural friendships, and understanding the Lajjitaadi Avasthas, as Angela mentioned, you can memorize the natural planetary friendships table. I have the attached cheat sheet (from the Graha Sutras book) stuck on my wall and I refer to it all the time, which also helps me memorize it. And, as I mentioned earlier, when it comes to understanding exaltation and debilitation, am not sure it is very useful to put too much emphasis on the natural friendship because, yes, that can be confusing sometimes. The thing is that each sign has multiple "influences", its ruler being "only" one of them, but a sign also has a gender, a modality, an element, a guna, a reason to be/motivation, a strategy, and resources. When you take that approach, the debilitation/exaltation makes a lot more sense. You could also benefit from the Character effects of the graha course where Ernst goes into details about how a planet behaves in each sign. It's really interesting and IMO is part of a foundational understanding of astrology.

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sharonsegall
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@rajan

thank you so mach for your response i think i am starting to get the dynamic and your explanation was very much  needed!

 

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Dr. Rajan
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Additional memory points which always helped me:

1. Sun-Saturn and Sun-Venus are the only 2 mutual enemy pairs.d

2. Saturn has max enemies: Sun, Moon and Mars (as Ernst clearly emphasised in LA course)

3. Unlike Moon who has no enemies, remember that Jupiter is enemy to no one.

4. The passionate pair of Mars and Venus are actually neutral to each other.

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Mona
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@rajan Awesome, thanks 😉

Also, I have a list of "perfect" relationships (mutual friends):

- Sun/Moon

- Venus/Saturn

- Venus/Mercury

- Jupiter/Sun

- Jupiter/Mars

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Leela
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Posted by: @mona

Some people say the Moon has enemies but is an enemy to no one. I think this is based on some mythology.

Not just mythology, I think the Sanskrit verse is ambiguous and needs to be interpreted. (Or maybe it seems ambiguous because it's in Sanskrit)

Even when we make a statement like "Moon has no enemies" in english, it is ambiguous. Does it mean the moon considers nobody as its enemy? Or nobody considers the moon as their enemy? (I do know Ernst' interpretation is the latter, though I don't remember if he has explained why- if you know could you point me to the relevant video)
So there is a question of who is the reference point. Some say the self is the reference point, so in every case it is the planet itself we're talking about, not what others feel about the planet. 

Posted by: @mona

I don't follow that

I wonder if you have personally thought about this? Genuinely curious.  

I started wondering about this 2-3 days ago, due to various reasons, and it's opened a can of worms, Lol. 

For example, if one key nature of the Moon is to be love-sick, why would he/she consider anyone to be an enemy (unless afflicted)? Isn't the shape-shifting, fickle nature of the Moon partly because he wants to somehow be loved? 

Plus, we do seem to consider Moon as Mercury's parent, and it seems strange to say a parent would hate their kid as a "Natural" relationship (minus any afflictions)- especially if we see Moon as the mother (coz biologically mothers are hardwired to protect their child)
But for a teenager, adolescent (Mercury) it is quite reasonable to "hate" their parent..

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Manisha
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@leela

Valid points. Words themselves are so ambiguous. As soon as you start to say something, you have already lost half the meaning. And there is only so much one can say before one has to stop to listen. A lot is lost and left unsaid. I think Jaimini and the old scriptures had the right idea - concise and to the point. Unfortunately, saying less also has its drawbacks, because then it is not understood properly or misunderstood.

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tuyetv
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@leela  Just as Saturn Sun (father and son) are enemies which i find to be strange too... 

 

tuyet

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Manisha
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@tuyetv

I have started looking at things in pairs too. Trying to understand one, helps understand the other. What one is, the other is not.

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tuyetv
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@manisha  sounds like these planets have a lot of family problems too like the rest of us humans. LOL...

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Angela W
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@leela @mona

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but regarding the mythology behind the relationship between the Moon and Mercury: It's not a two-way street because Mercury is the illegitimate child of the Moon. Mercury tries his best to help his father, but his father shuns him and treats him poorly. Presumably, because he is illegitimate and reminds the Moon of his sin (see "Graha Sutras" page 265 and 266). I think Ernst actually refers to this, either in his "Interpreting Avasthas" or in the intermediate LAs course he released before the master's course. 

(I apologize in case someone has already brought this up or everyone already knows this.)

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Leela
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@angela-w
Yes I do know the mythology. But with mythology, you have versions. 
I've read Mercury showing hatred toward his parents (Tara and Chandra) for having done such a lowly thing. 

Let me write a statement from what I read, w.r.t to Moon: "A man should be able to look up to his father. Alas! I can never do so"
"Yes, I am the son of Chandra, but I do not ever wish to see him" 

So on and so forth. 

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Angela W
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@leela

I see what you were referring to now and how the original Sanskrit wasn't phrased clearly and thus susceptible to being interpreted multiple ways. In that case, I apologize for stating the obvious!

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Manisha
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@leela

I would read mythologies as authors trying to explain a concept as they understand it. The only thing that would be valid would be what is the same within the different versions. Different versions are interesting to read to see the same thing from different angles to get a better perspective on it.

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Leela
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@manisha
Hmm, I do get that. 

But from in the variation I read we could interpret- Mercury doesn't respect Moon. So one could arrive at the idea that Mercury's analytical mind actually puts a dam on the Moon's flow and could thus starve it from being itself (pretty big difference) 

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Manisha
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@leela

LOL. Now, we have two different ways of looking at the Moon-Mercury relationship. As if life was not hard enough 🤣  One says Moon hates Mercury, another one says Mercury hates Moon. I guess the next step will be to figure out logically as to which one is the right way of looking at it, and if it makes any difference while understanding and reading charts. 

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Manisha
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@leela

The way I would look at it is, Mercury is androgynous. It’s natural flow is balanced, not too masculine, not too feminine. The Moon is feminine, needy, love-sick. The love-sick Moon has an affair without a care about anything. It is paired with the Sun, and flanked by the two signs of Mercury. 

Saturn is another androgynous planet and has his sign opposite the Moon’s. So basically the Moon is hemmed in on all sides forcing it to accept its pairing with the Sun - an acceptance of the conscious about the super-conscious, making it aware that there is more to life than the waxing and waning of tides, thoughts, events, ups and downs. Perhaps an acceptance that through it all, the Sun’s inspirations need to be followed.

So, if it wasn’t for Mercury’s signs putting a dam on the Moon’s flow, the Moon would cause havoc with its fluctuating needs and wants and desires. Since the Moon cannot flow as freely as it wants, it does not like Mercury. It kind of reminds me of Shiva tangling up Ganga in his hair to stem her flow. Mercury, on the other hand, has no say in the matter because he is unbiased. Whether the Moon likes him or not, he will do what he thinks is the right thing to do, which is to help Moon.

It is just my way of looking at it. In the end, my analytical mind just goes with what fits in with logic, what I experience within myself, and what I see happening in the world. Even though I think I am open-minded, perhaps I am still limited in my thinking.

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tuyetv
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@angela-w  i just finished listening to LA heart of parashara Mercury section. this is what Ernst said about Moon Mercury "

Moon and Mercury have a complicated relationship, the most complicated relationship. Mercury is the bastard child of the Moon. When Mercury is influencing Moon he helps the Moon. But dad the Moon is ashamed of having an affair with Jupiter’s wife, does not want to acknowledge Mercury’s help. Moon slapped Mercury around, abused him, did what he could to make Mercury’s life miserable. Yet they both share a similar responsibility in the chart and that is of a father and a child. In astrology when you have a father and a child they both fulfill something mutual. They are both working on something that are similar. When one fails, the other one can help. That makes it complicated that in one of them, the Moon wants to do what it wants to do, will sabotage his son’s efforts in trying to help him. His son Mercury will try to help his dad because he is a friend and helps him indirectly by achieving the same thing in the chart or similar thing in the chart.

The Moon is going around and wants to do what it wants to do in life, but it does not let Mercury go about its job successfully which had Mercury gone about successfully which would made the Moon life much easier and take a lot of the workload off the Moon. Moon starving Mercury very much sabotages the Moon’s agenda because he is sabotaging his son who is just trying to help out his dad. This is a complicated relationship"

 

tuyet

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Angela W
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@tuyetv

You found it!!! That was exactly the video I meant, but couldn't remember. Thank you so much for finding it and writing down what Ernst said in the video 😊 . This is so helfpul. I remember skipping ahead at some point because this is the worst avashta in my chart (though in thristed form).

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kam
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@angela-w mine is thirsted as well! By a waning moon, no less *sighs dramatically*

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Angela W
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@kam

So is mine technically (full, but just over the waning mark). I feel ya. Le sigh!

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Mona
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@leela Haha of course I thought about it, for a few weeks actually 🙃 . I remember Vic DiCara saying that Mercury hates the Moon but not the other way around. But, then he explains that the reason Mercury hates the Moon is because Moon's feelings can obstruct his intellectual capacity. So, when someone sees that situation as Mercury hating the Moon because it is obstructed by Moon, someone considers that it's the Moon that hates Mercury because it obstructs Mercury. At the end of the day, it's the same result... At least when it comes to the Lajjitaadi avasthas. This is also why I mentioned "I don't do that", in order to understand the Lajitaadi avasthas, there has to be an understanding of the dynamics and I prefer to stick to the framework I learned from Ernst and based on the natural friendship definition. And maybe, the love/hate, friend/enemy language is simply not appropriate which I can totally accept;) Happy to hear Ernst's opinion on the matter. 

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Leela
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@mona

I vaguely remembered Vic Dicara, just read some stuff again to remind myself. Couldn't find exactly what you refer to, though. 

 

Posted by: @mona

At the end of the day, it's the same result... At least when it comes to the Lajjitaadi avasthas.

Well, psychologically is where it does make a difference, to me the two below statements lead to a somewhat differing psychology, strategy etc. Shades, obviously. But with Lajjitadi Avasthas we ARE dealing with nuances.  
- I can't do my job because you dislike and distract me 
- I dislike you, and thus I won't do my job with you 

Probably there's a bit of both going on, and maybe their strengths will determine which version will play out. This part about the strengths is just a hunch though. 

///

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Mona
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@leela Unfortunately, I can't remember the video where he talks about it. The perk of having to walk my dog every day and not needing to take frantic notes as I do with Ernst ;), that's when I go to Youtube... My personal decision is to follow Ernst's teachings. Maybe when I'll have a few more years of experience dealing with avasthas, I'll reconsider the Moon's situation. . . Unless I've missed something in Ernst's teachings on natural relationships?

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