In 1951 The Indian GOvt. Got together a convention of astronomers, panchanga makers, etc. to unify the Indian calendar as different cities used different calculations and so wanted their holidays on different days and so nationwide govt business could not be in sync. They decided to use lahiri ayanamsa for nakshatras. They decided that sankranti's are tropical. and wrote into law how the calendar was thus to be calculated. Most of india was fine with using lahiri ayanamsa, but they just kept calculating sankranti's sidereally ,but now all with the same ayanamsa so they celebrate sankranti's on the same day. That was good enough for the govt which was concerned with everyone going to work on the same day and not concerned about astrology at all, so this law of tropical sankranti's was never enforced.
All cultures loose some knowledge during the dark ages. The western world forgot that the world was round. India forgot about precession. But in the end, India has preserved more astronomical knowledge then all the rest of the world combined. It just makes ironic sense that they forgot about the critical precession. But better they lost that then having lost all their texts as had happened in the western world as its an easy thing to rediscover as compared to having to rediscover what was in Parashara or Jaimini texts! What people don't understand is that no culture is meant to be perfect during the dark ages, each culture looses something that it must discover from another as the ages become more aware. As we ascend through higher ages, we will have more and more a global culture because the closer we get to truth the less differentiation there is and the furthest away we are from the truth, the differences become so great the neighboring village can appear like aliens.
A fantastic reference book on the Yugas which Ernst is referring to is called "The Yugas" by Joseph Selbie & David Steinmetz.
@angela-w
It was written in 2012. Really dives very deep into a wide variety of historical references pointing to this cycle that Yukteswar revived. Makes a lot more sense with knowing that we live in a low age still (even though it is an ascending age) and astronomy/astrology is not really understood that well scientifically yet (though it is getting better).
@scott-m-19 yeh Joseph Selbie is a Yogananda disciple (as am I). I took a course with him once about the yugas. It was great.
@leela I can´t deny that I was provocative, and I have a hard time stopping myself from being that. I agree: getting into a dispute about the timing is ridiculous. A dispute about who is foolish and who is not - complete foolishness! As I read on another forum recently: Mercury is debilitated in Pisces for a reason. When it comes to higher understanding we don´t understand much, at least not the mercurian way.
Peace and understanding, and please forgive me if I was teasing you.
Mattias
How so? Avastha is a concept/technique that is not dependent on the zodiac being tropical. Ernst demonstrating it with tropical doesn't mean it is 'tied' to the tropical zodiac. and FYI, Avasthas are not Ernst's invention. Sidereal astrologers commonly not using it doesn't mean it cannot be used with it. (and this is not even true, they do use it)
Yes, it is a concept and technique... that is more accurate using tropical zodiac. 😁
I was not suggesting Ernst invented the avasthas, however, he revolutionized medical astrology by implementing the deeptadi avasthas, (among other things). He's created a method of using the deeptadi avasthas with the tropical zodiac to determine specific diseases, which continue to amaze me in their accuracy!
I am using medical astrology as an example, because bodily concerns are a clear/physical manifestation that cannot be made so subjective the way people use the rest of Astrology.
Anyway - everyone is viewing Astrology, the charts, and the individual through the lense of their own unique facet of consciousness. My comment on simplifying the chart and just comparing something like ascendants or moon signs may seem like a good idea to me, but I'm reminded why it's a poor argument to make (people interpret life differently). Best to focus on the concrete.
My comment on simplifying the chart and just comparing something like ascendants or moon signs may seem like a good idea to me, but I'm reminded why it's a poor argument to make (people interpret life differently). Best to focus on the concrete.
All I'm saying is this can be done with both tropical and non-tropical.
that is more accurate using tropical zodiac.
Repeating a statement does not make something true 🙂
It is Avasthas that I started to find less accurate with tropical. I may come across like a hard core "siderealist" to you (probably coz I'm presenting myself that way 😉) , but I've actually used tropical for more years in comparison.
Anyway, most of what people offer as "proof" of their view seems a lot like anecdotes, analysed from a particular lens (including mine, I'm sure).
I was merely trying to point out (badly, perhaps) that the zealous over-confidence people express in this topic does not have any real merit (as of now). I still see logical flaws, which imo cannot be resolved solely from anecdotes.
I think everyone's experiences have merit, which is why I don't typically engage in the argument other than contribute my perspective. No hard feelings though, I have Rahu in 3rd so I'm LEARNING to look at things critically and not be so zealous in my beliefs. 😆
Many clients came to me and I got crazy with their birth chart for many days because I was not able to match to what they were saying. Finally I asked them what's the source of your time of birth, one said its a rectified time by another astrologer, another said its the one my mom remembered but then he search the actual certificate and it was few hours off.
With the actual times, things made sense.
So, there is always a great chance that our dear tropical opposers are facing similar issues or some other issues which they are not aware of and instead of digging out the missing things, they are finding it easier to call other extra zealous or copy cats! Instead of engaging in a healthy discussion by sharing chart data or issues so we can also think about their problems, they find it comfortable to blame everybody else. Anyways this is life, no fun unless some disorder is there which we learn to ignore!
If there is one thing I have learnt, it is that there is no reality and yet we have to choose one and live with it. But if that choice becomes a strong belief, then that becomes a problem.
Venkat had asked a very deep question. It wasn’t about tropical or sidereal astrology. It was about having a belief and what would happen if the person who you are following, and who you have based that belief upon, changes that belief. It showed his frame of mind. It shows the frame of mind of those who ask questions like these. It shows the struggle that is going in their mind.
The people who can form and release beliefs quickly and effortlessly have it really easy. But for those of us who deem loyalty to be a badge of honour, changing a belief takes a lot of intense thought and a very deep change in perspective. Everyone is after spirituality, but no one understands the internal battle that one has to go through.
Those astrologers who are very proud of their techniques should be able to see this and should be able to understand this. If they can’t even see beyond the question itself, what use is their belief and how helpful are those techniques going to be?
It has been quite interesting watching this thread, where it eventually became another type of a witch-hunt. The energies that day were quite intense with Mercury still being in retrograde? Did anyone take that into account?
The problem is that people who have to break through these internal barriers are never put into situations where they have help. The barriers are within, not without. All they need is understanding and space to question. Just as Venkat came from sidereal asking questions about tropical in a tropical based forum, I am sure there is another person who comes from tropical having the same internal fight about shifting from tropical in a sidereal based forum.
Ernst shifted from sidereal to tropical. Venkat was in the same boat. Who else but Ernst, or someone who has gone through a similar situation, would be able to guide him properly? I am sure Ernst must have gone through the same internal battle and had to do his own research for years to prove himself right or wrong, before he made the shift. At least, that is the vibe I get from what he has talked about in his videos. But who knows, perhaps, he just woke up one day as an enlightened tropical guru and ditched his sidereal practice and started wearing the tropical cape!!
I don’t know how the debate ended that day, but I see that Venkat has quit the forum. Astrology has become a laughable matter, and astrologers are no better than common folk who have no knowledge of astrology.
I had often wondered why Ernst would not allow for open discussion about deeper matters on his forum, but I can understand now. It’s a shame that those who can see beyond what exists have to walk their path alone with no support.
Hi Manisha
I don't think just belief is sufficient to learn anything in life, what is required also is open mindedness, acknowledging sincerely we are missing lot of things and not riding on multiple boats at the same time. If answer is not coming readily, then probably it's better to wait instead of saying this is controversial and that is controversial and inadequate. That doesn't help. Indeed all barriers are within us and we have to first make ourselves accountable before expecting things from others. And don't worry, he has quit the forum earlier too, that's not new. Let him enjoy one boat until he likes to come back.
I am open minded when it comes to Mercury related things because I don’t have a Rahu-Ketu axis there. Perhaps his Rahu-Ketu axis creates a problem with it or is completely trashed - I don’t know. Or perhaps his thinking process is related to something completely different. I can only wonder about which category his problem falls in and build probable answers to help me learn more.
I can only go from my own experience with Rahu-Ketu. If one can’t see, one really can’t see. One knows that one has reached a limit, but if one does not know that a path even exists, how can they walk on it? This creates a friction within the self. I see this in some of the people on the forum. If the information is there at your fingertips, how can one still not see? Perhaps, it is the way it is meant to be. Only when one veil is lifted is one allowed access to the next one.
Ernst talks about how Ketu is cunning and keeps us trapped there, and I know what he means. Even he talks about how he did not really understand Rahu-Ketu until they matured for him. It is very easy to see others. It takes time to see oneself.
I can look back and laugh at my entire life now. But when you are in the middle of shifting boats, there is also the fear of falling into unknown depths. It is a whole heap of psychological shit. The bigger the fear, the deeper the depth one has to dig oneself out from.
Astrology is not only to guide others. Perhaps we need to find a better way to dealing with things that trigger us, rather than expecting others to fall into line. I haven’t seen it work that way.
When Mo was with Me, Su, and Ma just recently I noticed that as a tough energy (atleast for me). I had two friends who just got into a serious car accident when Mo was within a degree of Me along with Su, Ma.
But everyone experiences these things differently.
In Response to Manisha wondering about what was going through my mind when I switched from tropical to sidereal. In the beginning of 2004 I walked out of my bathroom and had a thought, tropical Rasis with sidereal nakshatras! By the time I got halfway through the next room on my way back to my office, I said, NO WAY , DON"T GO THERE. and I didn't for about 10 months, but it kept creeping back in. I kept saying, DONT GO THERE. But eventually I did and spent two years testing every technique I knew and they all worked better with tropical. I told my close astrological peers that I used to talk to on a weekly basis, and after just mentioning it as a possibility when i first started the tests, they never talked to me again. Two years later, sidereal was such a clear looser, so at that point I just couldn't do sidereal anymore. I had just bought a house, had a huge house payment I was struggling to pay, I had been robbed of 4k, I had blown my back out a few months before and was still having issues walking, and I could not do sidereal anymore and I thought that, geez, its all over for me. Once I tell people I can't do sidereal they will all leave, I will loose my house, drive away with my three kids and wife in my 900.00 van and go somewhere. Frawly wrote me a letter and said, you have done really well in the astrology world in the last few years, wrote some very good books, if you turn to tropical you do understand that you are ending your career, it will be all over for you. I said, you don't understand, I CAN'T do sidereal anymore, my career is OVER if I don't use tropical. So I got all my students together, told them what I was doing on a phone conference class. A few left. A few stayed with sidereal and stayed with my courses, and most changed and liked the change. And then people started trickling in because I was using tropical. Many came and said, I always wanted to learn vedic but I just couldn't get it with the sidereal zodiac. All in all it was an intense period of three years from the first thought to the final decision and announcement.
Thank you for the detailed response. Venkat had asked about what would happen to someone’s practice if they shifted their beliefs. I don’t know if the question was about his practice or someone else’s, but I hope he reads about your experience and can use it as a yardstick.