Does anyone know whether any skilled astrologer has developed a system related to music, similar to Ernst´s gemstone system?
We know, of course, that the Moon is the main indicator for music/musicians. That the Sun has to do with the human voice, right?
For some reason I´ve got the idea that Sa/Ma may indicate drumming, but I can´t say why. Other than that my son, who´s a drummer, has it in his 5th house and that I´ve seen other drummers - among them the legendary Buddy Ritch - having the same placement.
Ryan attributes a key to each one of the planets, which may be used while doing mantras.
The 3rd house has to do with skills and the 5th the personal expression, as well as chants and mantras.
But other than that? Any special planet/sign for any special instrument, for example?
Staffan
A few weeks ago, just for fun, I was trying to relate each major type of instrument (both their sound and the role they play) of the standard classical symphony orchestra, to it's most appropriate planet.
Brass would be for the Sun because it has the loudest, brightest, and most intense sound. It creates wakefulness and a stately, alert, and regal mood, often donoting royalty (both earthly and heavenly). It’s grand sound can almost be described as firey or solar, which goes well with the shiney, golden, metalic appearance of brass instruments. And you have to have a lot of prana in you to play a brass instrument, and a strong solar plexus area and diaphram.
The flute (which would also include piccolos and recorders) would be ruled by the Moon. It has a gentle, white, pure, and sattvic sound to it and can denote both water and air. The sound of the flute is softest, purest, and most innocent of the instruments and illustrates how the Moon is the child mind. And of course Krishna, the moon avatar, played the flute, at least when he was a kid.
Mars is percussion as the force of hitting or striking. It is the concrete action of will that gives emphasis and forward propulsion in music. Percussion, like Mars, invokes power, force, alertness, and sometimes threat, conflict, and the startle response. It can also give order, rhythm, and keep the other instruments in line and steadily marching toward a goal.
Mercury would be the keyboard, usually a harpsichord or piano (or occassionally an organ). It is the instrument that requires great dexterity, fine motor coordination, and multitasking. And like the fastest planet Mercury, the keyboard usually changes notes the fastest.
A harpsichord or piano adds sophisticated support and orderly articulation of the points the other instruments make throughout the composition, whether it is playing along with the others at the same time, or simply sorting and adding points to remember while the other instruments are paused, and then they come back and agree and/or move on.
The keyboard does a lot of supportive communicating throughout the peice, but at a mild or moderate volumne and not in an overbearing way.
I find keybourd instruments to have a "packaged" or very "digital" sound, combining the mental ether element with the tangible earth element.
The ethereal “rung” instruments, such as glockenspiels, chimes, bells and triangles, would go to Jupiter as they give a heavenly sound that combines the sense of water and ether, Jupiter’s elements. They can simply add grace to the other instrument’s notes, or they can come in more loudly and tangibly on their own to denote ceremony and wealth.
Jupiter is the priest, and priests ring bells. Bells and chimes can also denote stars, and Jupiter relates to stars, as does his wife.
Also, the organ, traditionally the most spiritual of the keyboards, started including bells and chimes in the late classical or early romantic periods.
Cymbals and gongs however, would go, along with drums, to Mars for percussion.
Venus would be the strings. They are like the heart of the orchestra and most easily reach the human heart due to their mood-setting quality. Like Venus, the strings bring refinement, luxury, and often passion and romantic feelings to the music. Bowed string instruments, in particular, reasonate with the heart chakra.
The violin is one of the more endearing of the classical instruments. Think of how the solo violinist is called in to serenade a lover at a romantic candle-lit dinner.
Also having an orchestra was, and is, a luxury. And the basic group of bowed string instruments are what we usually hear in our minds the most when we think of an orchestra, as they are the required feature for being considered one.
The bowed strings primariy relate to Venus's air element, in my opinion, as their sound resonates with the heart and lung area and with the breath in the chest. But the strings are often plucked and strummed as well. And then there is the harp, usually the only orchestral string instrument never bowed, but just plucked and strummed instead. This plucking and strumming relates to the water element, in my opinion. Especially with the harp.
Finally, for Saturn, we have the non-flute woodwinds, which include the oboe, the English horn, the bassoons, and the clarinet. They have a more archaic, earthy, slightly harsh or somber and ancient sound to them. A perfect combination of earth and air.
While they could carry the melody and play over the others in some cases, such as in oboe concertoes, many times it seems that one of them comes in to express resignation or tell some back-history while the other instruments are silently paused, sometimes doing it slowly or with a mood of doubt, stubborness, or saddness. In particular, hearing the English horn or a bassoon play a few musical phrases while the other instruments are paused is like hearing an elder speak, sometimes crankily, sometimes with humility and resignation.
The clarinet can sound melancholy but can also be used to denote outright clumsiness, as can the contrabassoon.
@mitryendra80 That´s amazing, nothing short of brilliant.
I certainly got an answer to my question.
I thank you and I bow! I would play a tune on my flute, but I just bought it, I hardly know how to get a sound out of it. And my violin is hanging there, dusty. 🙁 My ceremonial drum is good though; maybe a little drumming in front of the altar later. 🙂
Staffan
Thanks! I'm glad it made sense to you. Jupiter was a hard one though! And its all just my untested theory.
I am very interested in what you mentioned about Ryan attributing a key to each planet, which could be used with mantra chanting, etc. Is there a video of his or an article or scripture you could point me toward?
Not too long ago, Vic Dicara was recommending musical notes and ragas in certain scales as remedies for the planets but I don't know if he is sticking with it. I'll have to go back and find the video.
@mitryendra80 I can understand that Jupiter was the hardest nut to crack, but now that you have done it, it´s more than obvious. Etheric sounds that bring hope or rather create space for hope, creating a space for the soul to breath within, wandering sounds . Even if cymbals are Mars instruments gongs are Jupiterian, I suppose. Bowls are also called standing bells...
Just as a minor side note, there is a playful and childish side to the percussion, which is most evident in the rattle. Kartikeya... I´ve tried to see if he´s depicted with a drum or a rattle in the tradition, but it doesn´t seem to be the case, unfortunately.
I will check out the keys of the planet; It´s from a payed for course I took a while ago, I´ll look it up!
Staffan
It took me a while but I found it. It´s from the handout of the Myth and magicks course by Ryan K.
Moon and Sun: A
Mars: E
Mercury: G
Jupiter: D
Venus: F
Saturn: C
No notes for the nodes.
I have no idea what the source of these concepts might be.
Staffan
@staffan Thanks. I was thinking it might be this.
This is the basic musical scale where C (usually middle C) is the root chakra, linked to Capricorn and Aquarius and ruled by Saturn, progresses up to the other notes/chakras and ends at A, the brow chakra where Cancer(Moon) and Leo(Sun) are.
It looks like he had it shown in the classical order of the planets, instead of the musical scale and ascending chakra order.
There are other systems that use a different scale for the chakras though, a more uniquly indian scale, most often.
This may be the safest and most basic method to use, though.
I also wonder if it would help the planet to use the key of the chakra that has the rashi where it is exalted? Like C for Mars (root chakra, Cap-Aqu), D for Venus (Pis-Sag), E for Sun, F for Moon and Saturn, G for Mercury, and A for Jupiter.
@mitryendra80 That seems more logic and plausible to me. I tried to do the mantras with the chords that Ryan gave but I didn´t feel it worked for me. I´ll give your idea a try some day and see if it feels better.
What I did notice though - this is a sidenote - is that when I for some reason got stuck with the Moon mantras and they didn´t flow, I started to vary them a lot. Speed, volume etc. That unstuck them.
Staffan
@staffan Remeber its just a guess on my part, but probably safe though.
Mars is exalted in Saturn's rashi. Saturn's rashis are in the root chakra. But I hope doing a Mars mantra in Ryan's key of Saturn doesn't create a Saturn-Mars starvation in the astral body!
Or maybe its like gemstones and we can do a planetary mantra in the key of whichever chakra contains the rashi the planet is placed in in our natal chart, thus working like homeopathy or a harmonic adaptogen.
@mitryendra80 It´s Krishnas instrument as you said, Krishna is the deity of the Moon, and it´s a very ondulating instrument, waning and waxing, it´s dreamy, it´s soothing... I have no doubt in your assertion.
Staffan
Yet another observation: The flute is related to hypnosis and control over other people´s mind, like in the famous tale of the Pied Piper of Hamelin. It´s also one of only two instruments that the European armies used to use for to convince their soldiers to risk their lives in the battle: The suggestive drum (Mars) and the hypnotic fife.
Staffan
@mitryendra80 Just watched it; I don´t think I´m knowledgable enough to spot the flaws, if there are any, but to me it seems solid. Again, what´s your thoughts about it? This should work as a therapeutical instrument, I think. And what about combining the zodiacal system that Vic presents with the instruments, then we can recommend this and this concert in this and this key, knowing that they have strong brass parts for the Sun, or the violin for Venus, etc. Neat, and possibly revolutionary!
I can see why the oboe and bassoon seem to heal me, with my bad Saturn. I´m know going to try to find if works better in some special key.
Staffan
@staffan I actually haven't watched it yet, but I will soon.
I'm currently not proficient enough at an instrument, though I used to be at the piano. I'm horrible at sight-reading.
I do want to get back to it though.
I also have a Japanese-made bamboo flute that I got about 26 years ago that is probably fit to play indian-style music.
I have a Moon AK, by the way.
@mitryendra80 Oh, a Moon brother! 🙂
In case you don´t plan to play on your flute yourself, please sell it to me! We are speaking about a shakuhachi, right? That has become my dream instrument. But I don´t want to speed things up; especially when it comes to music and the flute (both Moon themes) it´s important to go with the flow, of course.
Not being good at sight-reading does not have to be a bad thing, I believe. Being schooled may take something away from us. Paul McCartney and John Lennon didn´t have much schooling neither of them, and Benny Andersson, the ABBA pianist and composer, until this very day can´t read a sheet. Personally I´m trying not to learn known melodies on the flute, right now, but rather just play and listen to the tune, the energy, the harmonies etc. But then my main interest is to use it for contemplation and for my musical medical practice, not to play in a band or entertain anybody. I´m already developing my singing and chant in that direction, so I have an idea of where to go. Check out peruvian "icaros" if you are interested (Search for "shipibo" and "icaro"), and also huichol violin music ("marakame" and "violin"). I think that the saxophone player Colin Stetson is onto something similar (works like "the honourable wrath of a righteous man" and "the lighthouse 1"), and even composers like Sibelius (the third tempo in his Violin concerto seems to be more about the energy than about the melody or the harmony) and Bartok. I recently found a new favourite in David Bruce, check out his Sidechaining if you are interested. Main theme, I believe: the energy of the instruments.
And then, of course all the raga and shakuhachi magic, nothing new there...
Staffan
@staffan Actually its not a shakuhachi, just a simple basic traditional bamboo flute that can be used for playing Irish, Indian, etc. style music.
I do intend to play it soon, as long as I can live somewhere or spend time in a place where, I can play it without distrubing someone. I have had dreams, at night, of playing it.
I have this urge to go into some shopping mall or a Costco or a warehouse of some kind, and just start playing it and see how long it takes me to get thrown out. Then I may just play it in the woods.
@mitryendra80 See you in the woods! 🙂 That´s what I plan to go. I´m going back to school in midst March, I will study alternative medicine for 8 months and sleep in a dorm. I´m going to need my flute and my solitude in the woods, I guess.
A spirit guide told me: "start with leaves!" And I, like: "WHAT??" But actually, there are videos on YT about leaves as an instrument. I felt so ashamed when I saw it, that I didn´t know about that; I thought I was close to nature. So now I´m trying to play the Leaf. 🙂
The guide also said: "Connect with your stomach and your lungs."
OK...
Reading notes would only distract me, I reckon...
Oh, don´t forget to tell me you Costco adventure, in case you decide to risk your neck doing it. 🙂
Staffan
I forgot to mention that the sound of brass warms the body and that the oboe sounds like a crow, Saturn's bird.
@mitryendra80 Good observation. Actually the oboe or the bassoon - bass oboe - were the instruments I wanted to play. Love both, I guess Tchaykovsky has a lot to do with that... But they are hard instruments to play, and hard to keep in a tough climate. So not this lifetime, probably.
Except for the role that the oboe famously plays in the movie "The Mission" - Gabriel´s oboe by Morricone - there is a movie about this bilogist studying wolves that Ernst talks about somewhere. Don´t remember the movies title right now, but it´s available on YT, I saw it recently. He communicates with the wolves on a bassoon. 🙂
Staffan
@mitryendra80 wonderful associations.
I only have a doubt, for me the Sun is the drums. So round, so creating a beginning, a new world, a center...
I don't feel warmth in the brass. They are quite aggressive to me. They can come in like warriors. Or the trumpets of the Apocalypse, destroying. And Mars is my worst planet. Maybe hard for me to accept them. Very young I played a few years in a brass band. I was playing bassoon. I could do all the mistakes I wanted, no body could hear me. Except a few seconds every half and hour.
This is my feeling. But I love what you wrote. Thanks
@marianela Interesting, now we will have to think and go deeper it seems...
A few thoughts...
The aggressiveness of the brass, isn´t that just like the agitating Sun?
The Sun also has "honey yellow eyes", a phrase indicating compassion and sweetness. Brass can be really sweet too.
Drums are used to motivate soldiers to go to the battle. So does the fife or the bagpipe, Moon instruments. F**king up the soldiers mind... I believe that a Sun instrument couldn´t do that, a general doesn´t want his soldiers to connect to their own personal truth while being sent to the battle and fight for the king. They want them in a state of emergency, so Mars...
The rattle is a percussion instrument and has a strong connection to small children. Kartikeya.
That´s what comes to my mind right now. I strongly feel that Mitryendra is right, but it would be interesting to listen to Ernst´s opinion of course.
Staffan
@marianela Speaking about beginnings, this piece of music may be the once mostly used of them all when it comes to suggest a beginning:
https://youtu.be/Szdziw4tI9o?si=BzdrJzLAzoGiM9on
Also sprach Zarathustra by Richard Strauss, in case someone wondered.
It´s interesting how both the brass and the drums play a vital role. But the brass comes first... Hm...
Staffan
I was pondering on this.
Let´s assume this piece is about the birth. Then the brass - to me - indicates the Sun, the individual being born. And the drums would be Mars, indication of Mother in the Jaimini system, giving birth.
Could be. It opens up for an interesting listening at least.
Child birth on a score. 🙂
Staffan
@staffan Drums in general tend to invoke the Earth in my mind, in particular mountains, etc. (And earth is often considered mother.)
I see the roundness of the drum shape and the deep round sound it produces as the Earth as a whole.
I know in the element scheme Mars is just fire, but Bhumi Deva, the Earth goddess, is considered the ruler of Mars, with Kartikeya as Mar's overlord. Mars rules the fire that exists in the Earth, like volcanoes, which can forge gemstones, the remedy which requires a strong Mars.
So it seems that Fire-ruled Mars has Earth as a secondary element. And the Earth itself is linked with the Mother in general.
This peice can be used to evoke a swift sunrise, which is a type of birth of the Sun from the Earth to the observer.
The brass at the very begining is the first light that appeares during dawn, which announces, but precedes, the actual arrival of the solar orb crossing over the horizon. Then as the Sun continues get closer to rising, along with the brass getting louder, the land (drums, Mars) is made visable all around.
@mitryendra80 It´s actually quite evident and not at all farfetched. It´s literally awesome - one fall in awe - that just as you say; the brass shows the first rays of the Sun, and that the drums (Mars/mother Earth) comes in just after that, just as mother Earth is being lit up. This is beaaauutiful!
No wonder this piece of music has gained such a reputation. It´s unequaled, in a way.
Staffan
If you want to listen to a really tender, sweet wind section with a lot of brass in it - and some generally awesome music/musicianship, I recommend Dirty Loops/Cory Wong and their cover on Thriller, in which Prince´s wind section plays an important role, especially closer to the end of the song. One reason that I love this piece is because of all the respect and love and sharing that is going on between the musicians. And it´s such a tasteful arrangement that one would think noone was able to make today (at least I didn´t):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m34byl2BT1o
If you like it, also check out Ring of Saturn, Turbo and Follow the light with the same constellation.
And then there are a bunch of good songs with just Dirty Loops, but that´s another story.
Staffan
@mitryendra80 An additional note: As I said, when I read your note, I had just bought a flute. A small plastic fife, just a beginner´s instrument. I planned to by a clarinet, which would be fine since I have Saturn in my Sva. But Moon is my AK... I live in the tropics and having a cheap clarinet in these weather conditions, and far from any shop that could fix it would just be a problem, so I went for the flute...
This makes me really happy. As I said, the Moon is my AK. And my daughter, who I have been separated from for more than half of her life - she turns 25 now - has the Moon as her PiK, her father planet. In her 8th - ouch! - in Shravana nakshatra, the Ear... Gosh, am I motivated to learn to play the flute well... Telling her stories of hope, of relief, of joy. For the first time in relief I´ve gotten a real interest in getting to know Krishna; I mean, I´ve always been interested in God, but haven´t payed much attention to him in that form.
So thank you so much Mitryendra, what you told me is going to change all my relation to music, to myself and to my daughter.
🙂
Staffan
@mitryendra80 Oh guru (at least in this realm of astrology), to what planet would you attribute the harmonica?
Just discovered a harmonica godess I´d never heard of before:
https://youtu.be/pOsynqyg8Rs?si=PavR8yVYvsS91X0e
Staffan
@staffan I would say, in and of itself, the harmonica would be a Saturn instrument.
Simple, sqawky, and mournful, used to pass time when riding trains or waiting at bus stops during difficult times.
Though a folk and blues instrument, I've heard Bach peices played beatifully on the harmonica.
The harmonica, however, is outside the established cosmic egg of the standard classical symphony orchestra (a centuries-old tradition).
As long as we limit the components in question to those inside the same single pre-established cosmic egg, all the planetary correspondences will easily fall into place.
However, when there isn't a context in which the components in question are part of a greater whole, such the creatures that live in a tropical jungle, the human roles in a traditional kingdom, the major organs of the body, etc. it all becomes more relative and multifaceted.
Interesting! If I may add/comment:
- I'd add Harp for Jupiter. or better- a Jupiter Moon conjunction.
Organ also has something Jupiterian about it, due to its large sound. Even the physical instrument is so large and often associated with the religious institution of the Church, which again seems Jupiterian.
- Brass has something martian about. Maybe the Sun in aries, rather than Sun in general.
- Voice as Sun seems fitting. Irrespective of culture or genre, when the voice exists, it shines and takes lead, and everything defers to it, everyone listens to it.
I suppose any "soloist" is a Sun-like position. But most instruments are often showing-off their skills as soloists, so more like Mercury. Even the Voice takes a Sun-Mercury like position in operas or voice accompanied by orchestra, as skill is a big focus of it.
- I wonder if piano/harpischord could be like a Mercury-Moon thing. Definitely has Mercury as you pointed out, both in terms of skill and analytical/theoretical skill associated with it. But a lot of Western Music theory or practice is based on piano as something very "foundational". It is fast moving, emotive, yet quite rigid. Its tuning can't be changed, it is limited in terms of not being able to express microtones or slides. It's almost like a lot of the difficulty of Western music comes from the rigidity in thought that the piano presents, and a lot of "experiments" are merely a rebellion against the piano. Just a thought.
- String section as a luxurious and romantic Venus makes sense. But maybe not Double Bass? Maybe a saturnian Venus?
But context changes things..
Violin is used in South Indian classical concerts, a very common accompanying instrument. It has a Moon-like function, as it immediately reflects back everything the Sun (vocals) does. Mercury too, of course, for skill.
Veena could be Venus, but maybe Venus in Pisces or something.
Swarmandal and Santoor also seem like Jupiter.
There is also the swara-chakra relation, if you know about it. So there is some correlation there too with notes and planets.
Sa (Note 1) = Muladhar
Ri (Note 2) = Swadishthana
Ga (Note 3) = Manipura
Ma (Note 4) = Anahat
Pa (Note 5) = Vishuddhi
Dha (Note 6) = Ajna
Ni (Note 7) = Sahasrar
@xyzabc Interesting! I think Mitryendra is right when he says that his assessments should be seen in context, that is a well-balanced symphony orchestra where all instruments / planets are present, thus reflecting the solar system. Outside of that context, the roles may change. Like you say: several instruments seem to be ruled by several planets.
Glad you mentioned the Indian scale, we have to go deeper on that. Do you by any chance know the name of the seminotes? Did you watch Vic Dicaras video in which he attributes each of the notes to a sign? I wonder whether that could be applied on the Western scale too, that is: Is Muladhar the same as C etc?
If that is so, and if Mitryendras system for the instruments is correct, we can use music as therapy in a probably very effective way: "You should listen to violin music in this key" etc.
Staffan
@xyzabc With that said, as for your suggestions: Marianela did the same observation concerning the Sun. I don´t agree.
The organ: I had the same thought; it´s in the service of spirituality and it´s huge. But it doesn´t have the etheric quality that bells, chimes and similar instruments have. So I don´t agree on that assessment.
I don´t agree with harp for Jupiter neither. When I imagine the sound of a bell I hear a wandering, expansive sound that opens up space, that makes room for us to exist in. That is Jupiter to me. As beautiful as the harp is, and even though it has an angelical association, I don´t think it has that quality. I´m not sure about this one though. But what would differentiate a harp an a guitar in that case?
I like your idea about the Western music being a struggle with the rules to a large degree. For better and for worse.
Staffan