I'm wondering about other people experience of after becoming aware of shaming avasthas then experiencing them in real time, particularly when they are triggered by others shaming you.
I'm running an Antardasa of Rahu that is involved in the shaming of three separate planets, mega shame! Since getting a bit of a handle on how it works, I've had experiences now of becoming aware that people are shaming me in the moment. Habitually I would take a defensive posture, directly or indirectly by covering up emotions then trying to achieve dominance, shame the other in return or appeal to humor to get through the experience only to stew in negativity that seeks an outlet through any number of "shameful" actions by which time I have become oblivious to why I'm doing the shameful things and the only cause seems to be me, myself, just a bad egg!
The real-time realization of getting shamed by someone, since I know I have attracted them into my life by not healing the shame in me, somehow releases me from blaming them. The wound is brought up, but if I remind myself that I know my value, what's great about me, the clarity of intention and motivation, particularly in the situation through which the shame is coming, I move through what feels like an energy vortex that is a trap to the past, I don't take on the shame and get to a place of peace with the situation that is transmitted to the other person involved and they also experience a shift. It's to the point now where I get a hint that shame is coming before the words are said. I think this is my old protective mechanism that now knows it doesn't have to just blindly protect but can digest and process what comes. This openness leads to what I remember Ernst saying about discovering a new you and world when the shame is healed/healing. It certainly does and as someone with three shamed planets there is a lot to discover!
I'm wondering about other peoples experience of working with and through shamed planets and in particular when this avastha is triggered through other people and how you worked with it.
I have an ashamed planet natally. Instead of feeling shame, it hurts me more to know that people could be so cruel. Maybe I learnt early on to disassociate with it, but I am aware of shame and I have over-compensated towards others in the past in not making them feel ashamed or helping them overcome their shame. Maybe because I berate myself enough, no one else gets the chance to do it to me, except on extremely rare occasions. Haha. Great way to keep the ego in check.
Since taking the LA course a few years ago, I have become more aware of it and I have been able to start using it in a positive way. If the ego doesn’t hurt, even if we attract shame towards us, it’s like hitting a wall that’s not there and it can pass through without causing any damage. I remember, it used to affect me for days on end trying to figure out what I did wrong to bring something like that towards me. Now, it takes only a few seconds to re-orient myself.
At the moment, I am working on understanding the ‘shaming others’ part and why people end up doing it. I have couple of people close to me who I know have ashamed planets either natally or running one this year, and I am watching my own reactions towards them in tandem with an ashamed planet that I am running this year, and theirs in return. I can see how it can be hard when you don’t know what is happening. It’s still hard even though I know what is happening, but at least I have some tools to work with.
Definitely not easy, but gives the opportunity for massive growth. Sorry, have to find the silver lining in the black cloud ????
I really like how you bring attention to how we shame others. I notice I do it in fairly subtle ways. In the worst scenarios it becomes like a pissing match with a twisted idea of fun being who can be the more subversive and sarcastic in finding weakness and taking the other person down. When it gets to that stage there seems to be a denial of true needs reflecting the negative view of being shamed, like we don't even deserve to have our real needs met and so resort to obtaining dominance. Perhaps getting in touch with ones needs and seeing that others have those too is an entry point for passing up opportunities to shame others that come up in our habitual thinking process.
@quasar259 I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.
It seems to be the only way people communicate these days, especially in comments and social media. The shame competition to achieve some kind of petty dominance.
But it is cowardly and hypocritical if it becomes the only way we communicate, especially from our so-called leaders too.
Feeling shame is not a bad thing. It is the mind's experience of emotions. What is bad is being reactive to it and shaming others in response. It traps us in a never-ending cycle and it is very easy to lose oneself down the road of trying to dominate.
There is fear associated with shame, and of course, guilt. Unprocessed emotions act like triggers causing a knee-jerk lash-back. I have read that shame bypasses the logical thinking mind and triggers the fight-and-flight response center in the brain. That is what causes people to go into the over-protective mode.
But then, the same sentence spoken in front of two people - one feels shame and the other doesn’t. So it really isn’t about what was said, but how each person interprets it. The one having the shamed avastha will always read it as a shaming situation. Unless there was a genuine effort of shaming a person which happens too. I think we need to learn to separate the two. One is our own thoughts, the other is someone encroaching on our boundaries.
With shame, I went to the other extreme of internalising everything and making myself smaller instead of fighting and shaming others in return. I could not understand why people were being mean when I was being understanding and compassionate, and not pushing my shame onto them. Now, I understand it was to do with my Rahu-Ketu. In some things it helped, in others it made things worse. Looking back, I could have dealt with it in other ways.
No one else can fulfil our needs except us. But from infancy, we get caught up in the illusion that we are dependent on others to fulfil them for us. Slowly, we lose touch with our needs and we forget that we are adults capable of fulfilling the needs that we have. We stay in the illusion of being dependent on others and on society, and give up on many parts of ourselves to fit into the environment that we find ourselves in, completely unaware that the right environment where all our parts are accepted is just a hop-skip-and-a-jump away.
Now, I try to have healthy boundaries both towards myself and towards others. Self-compassion is key but only if it helps build compassion towards others. Similarly, compassion towards others is imperative but only if one can maintain self-compassion. Empathy towards others is excellent but empathy towards oneself is paramount. And empathy towards oneself cannot overpower empathy towards others.
It definitely is an interesting avastha, this one.
@manisha Interesting that there is evidence saying that shame bypasses logical thinking, perhaps that is the survival instinct of the ego. Maybe this is part of the physiological basis for the miracles that are possible when a person with shamed planets surrenders the ego to allow higher forces to take over that Ernst talks about in the LA master course in the Sun shaming Jupiter video. Rather than protect the individual a break though occurs, the pain of ego never being able to be whole in itself is embraced and greater forces are then capable to work though the individual.
There has been a lot of research on emotions including that of shame. It has been found that women and adolescents are more at risk to the negative effects of shame.
I guess it is more debilitating because it gets confused with the foundation of the person, thus triggering the fight-or-flight response. As you said, the survival instinct of the ego.
There is such a thing as a healthy ego and healthy shame. It keeps us in check and stops us being tyrannical. I guess it’s all about rewiring our internal systems, and making sure that shaming situations go through some logical thinking.
Shame can be turned around and used to better ourselves. Once healed, it can also be used to protect others.
I have an ashamed Jupiter so I have personal experience of the subject.
To me the best way of dealing with any emotion is to fully accept it. Invite your shame, feel it! It´s not going to kill you and by the end of the day you are going to feel liberated. Little by little, babysteps...
I´ve had a couple of periods in recent years where I´ve been able to kind of having my shame present in early morning hours and weave more or less lucid dreams around them. Very therepeutical, a wonderful way of befriending your shame. Which actually offers a gateway to heaven, as Ernst explains; if we can fully accept our shame there is nothing in our ways hindering us from accepting us - loving us - completely.
Mattias