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Manisha
Posts: 546
(@manisha)
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The way I see it, there are two aspects to it. One is a person being independent, and one is when a person is in a relationship. Being single means everything that you need, you are capable of providing for yourself, whether it be a man or a woman.

To look at it as an independent person -

There are many examples of women holding important higher positions and working shoulder to shoulder with men for centuries. Even if a woman does not go out to work to earn money, she can still do things to help sustain her physical body. Gardening, gathering, bartering, needlework, etc were ways that women have kept themselves and helped keep their families alive for many centuries. This is using their masculine side. 

Asking a woman to not use her masculine side makes her weak and dependent and depressed, and in turn it makes the family, the children and the society weak and dependent and depressive. I personally feel good about myself when I have taken some action. I guess it is one of the reasons many women go to the gym or running - to get those endorphins going. Endorphins have got nothing to do with testosterones.

To look at it as a person in a relationship -

Two people come together because it is time for them to move up to the next level and find other weaknesses within themselves and overcome them. Where one is strong, the other is weak, and vice versa.

A woman connects from within. But if she has connected to something that is not making her emotionally fulfilled, then that means that she has connected to the wrong thing. Taking any action on the outside to change her circumstances is not going to get her any fruits. But if she takes actions to make the shift from within, things begin to shift for her without taking action in the outside world and she begins to attract that which will make her emotionally fulfilled. 

As Ernst has mentioned, all a woman has to do is say ‘yes’ to things that make her happy and ‘no’ to things that make her unhappy. It is as simple as that. No reasons, no excuses needed. It is putting down the boundaries of Saturn which becomes the hardest for her as an emotional entity. Someone who connects to everything from within now has to learn to become ruthless to cut and keep certain parts of the universe out. Kind of like weeding the bad things out so that good things can flourish in the universe. It is not an easy task.

Women are on a journey of finding their real nature and experiencing the power of Nature Herself that flows through them. Unfortunately, it makes insecure men feel more insecure.

Recently, a man said something to me that I found was a profound way of expressing the reality of Nature - “A man might think he is the one doing things, but a man can do nothing unless a woman gives him permission to do it.” A man acknowledging his primordial weakness is a rarity, and I honour him for that insight. He is someone I will bow down to.

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Leela
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@manisha 

Personally, I don't buy into the dichotomy of woman = Nature, man = Spirit. The Nature/Spirit, Purusha/Prakriti, Shiva/Shakti duality is playing within, not outside. Men are as much of Nature as women are, Women are as much of Spirit as Men are. In fact, men are much more connected to their physical nature than women are.
But anyway, they both have the potential, and it goes both ways. Shiva is transforming Shakti, and Shakti is transforming Shiva.

I say all this because an incorrect interpretation of all this is what lends men to believe they are of "Spirit" and thus superior in the hierarchy, and that they are somehow here to save women.

Posted by: @manisha

“A man might think he is the one doing things, but a man can do nothing unless a woman gives him permission to do it.”

But that is a man's journey, if at all he feels that way.
Personally, a part of me suspects men say such things because they don't want the responsibility or consequences of their own action. So if they think this way, they can even attribute horrible actions to the woman.. and men through time and history have definitely done that, they label woman = evil, woman = the fallen one.

Me, I don't think women are here to be their mommy. I don't think the main motive of my existence is to give them permission or restrict them. Mostly because I have better things to do, my own discoveries to make, my own Self to manifest. That is infinitely more interesting to me. I just wish more women understood the joy of that!
If that helps men indirectly, great!

 

Posted by: @manisha

A woman connects from within. But if she has connected to something that is not making her emotionally fulfilled, then that means that she has connected to the wrong thing.

The way I see it, everything cannot satisfy everything. Some things we do solely for emotional fulfillment, somethings for our inspiration, some for pragmatic reasons.. and in some moments they all come together. The more layered we are, the more complex it all gets, the more time it takes for it to come together. The journey is as much a fun thing.

 

 

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Manisha
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@leela 

Posted by: @leela

Personally, a part of me suspects men say such things because they don't want the responsibility or consequences of their own action. So if they think this way, they can even attribute horrible actions to the woman.. and men through time and history have definitely done that, they label woman = evil, woman = the fallen one.

I know what you mean. But no, this man, when he said that sentence to me, the way he said it implied that women have more power than men and that they should use it more often. His tone held awe and pride. It held the promise of support when in need. 

Posted by: @leela

Me, I don't think women are here to be their mommy. I don't think the main motive of my existence is to give them permission or restrict them. Mostly because I have better things to do, my own discoveries to make, my own Self to manifest. That is infinitely more interesting to me. I just wish more women understood the joy of that!
If that helps men indirectly, great!

There is no way I would want to be their mommy either. I would be the first one to show them the door. I need someone who would stand with me shoulder to shoulder and someone I can look up to. I have no time for someone who wants to hide behind my skirts, lord it over me and strut around at my expense. And that is where internal boundaries come into play as a woman.

Men might have physical strength (though even that seems to be lacking in today’s world!), but women have emotional strength which many don’t use. A woman’s strong internal emotional ‘no’ is stronger than a man’s physical ‘yes’.

The reason I equated Woman to Nature is because a woman has the power to create. What world is she creating for herself? Shiva/Shakti duality is playing within, but the play of Yin and Yang is reflected in everything that exists.

Ah yes, the wonderful interpretations of teachings that came into effect in the patriarchal world!! The protection of women that turned into subjugation of women! And it wasn’t only men doing it to women, even women doing it to women!

It is not the words, but the interpretation of words according to different perspectives that changes its meaning. There are a lot of meanings that need to be corrected in the future. How twisted we become when we do not have the freedom to be who we are! Kind of reminds me of the mythology of the Sun’s wife (power) who could not say ‘no’ to the Sun, created a shadow aspect of herself (Sun’s power) that bound him through Saturn.

But just because no one says it out openly does not mean that everyone uses the wrong meanings or perspectives that demean others. All we have to do is direct more energy to the ones who do not demean others, and less on those who do. That way we are saying ‘no’ to what we don’t want and ‘yes’ to what we do. Like this person I met who said this sentence to me out of the blue, making me feel more powerful and hence more open. He is not a saint or a great guru, just a normal guy who does not even know what astrology is or what spirituality means. I want to meet more people like him. I want the world to be full of people who empower others rather than pull them down.

Thankfully, patriarchy is coming to an end. We will see how it goes. 

Posted by: @leela

The way I see it, everything cannot satisfy everything. Some things we do solely for emotional fulfillment, somethings for our inspiration, some for pragmatic reasons.. and in some moments they all come together. The more layered we are, the more complex it all gets, the more time it takes for it to come together. The journey is as much a fun thing.

True. 

 

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Leela
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@manisha 

I'm sure you are right in assessing the person who spoke to you. Not judging that person, seeing as I don't even know him.

Yet, something about it leaves a bad taste for me, and I've pondering on it. I think it is that, even when men compliment a woman, or her power, and find her strong etc- they still make it about themselves. They think women should use her power- but to make a man better, make a man reach his potential, make him do better things by wielding that power, and execute his ideas and his vision. It's always, always about the man.
I'm pretty fatigued by that notion. The cynic in me just assesses that men are very smart when it comes to getting a woman to do something they want and make them think its their idea to begin with- be it porn, or prostitution or something 'nice' as well. And all because women are addicted to their emotions, and men know it and use it very well.

But we could just tune into our soul instead.

Moreover, I don't personally want to feel dependent on someone else (man or woman) to make me feel powerful, as that defeats the purpose anyway. Though, yes, we all perhaps need that moment sometimes when it does come externally to make us realize something.

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Manisha
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@leela 

Posted by: @leela

I don't personally want to feel dependent on someone else (man or woman) to make me feel powerful, as that defeats the purpose anyway. Though, yes, we all perhaps need that moment sometimes when it does come externally to make us realize something.

I have been treated like an emotional punching bag ever since I was a child. I just could never understand why I was attracting such horrible creatures into my world. I was nice to them, I was patient with them, I was understanding towards them. The more leeway I gave, the more I got punched. I knew I was doing something wrong, but couldn’t figure out that I was too nice, too understanding and way too patient.

So when people come into my world who build me up instead of pull me down, it shows me how far I have come. It has been a hell of a struggle and I am proud of myself for what I have achieved and dragged myself out from. I take it as a small pat on the back from the universe.

The battle is not over yet because people wanting to use me as punching bag are still lurking on the periphery of my world. Whenever I have an encounter with them, I know that there is a weakness in my boundaries and I have to look deeper for that weakness.

People will be people. We can’t change them. We can only choose what we allow them to do to us. 

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Leela
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@manisha 

It's nice that you recognised a pattern in you and watched it melt away over time. Glad you're getting to experience newer kinds of people in your life now, that is really amazing 🙂

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Stefanie3004
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When I am emotionally down, I found that having a job to do helps instead of constantly thinking of my emotional pain but after a day of hard work, I am again reminded of my pain. 

I find talking to a therapist or even sharing my problems with female friends helps. 

I am not a meditator but I like to listen to spiritual talks/discussions. It helps too. Work on that Jupiter. 

It is said that a man cannot live without a wife and a woman cannot live without her friends. 

 

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Mattias
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@leela Whatever works for you Leela. I was just answering the poster according to my understanding of Ernst´s teaching on this issue. 

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Ernst Wilhelm
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The doing out there expects a result from there and the result has to happen internally. 

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Stefanie3004
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Pat Allen says that a woman has to choose between being cherished and respected. Why can’t I have both? 

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Leela
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@stefanie3004 

It's probably better to define the context of cherish and respect and accept that women may not get both within a relationship, even though men usually get both within a relationship or they wouldn't even be in one. So women are advised by pragmatic people, to do the demeaning task of picking one thing.

I think women can have both in general though, as long as they understand that its actions that usually get respect. So as long as we are willing to do, we can get respect, especially from the world. Being willing to do will also weed out weak men who have an issue with cherishing such a woman or being in a relationship with her.

But it is all a gamble, as majority of men are still too immature.

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Mattias
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@leela

majority of men are still too immature.

That´s a very biased thing to say, which tells us more about you than about the object you are saying it about.

If you would listen to Ernst´s and Pat Allen´s teaching about this you would get a chance to change your perspective. But you stick to your own truth it seems. I can´t see what it has to do in this discussion.

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Leela
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@meyes 

It's just an observation, nothing else.

My strategy has just worked for me, so I'm just saying that. I just wish more women realize that it is a workable strategy, that's all.

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astroalex
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@leela What is your observation based on? Personal experiences with men?

If a strategy works for you, that's great. That is your path. Any women that need to be on a similar path, will be, sooner or later. Don't worry about them. Let women have their own experience, whatever that may be for them.

Alex 

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Leela
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@astroalex

Posted by: @astroalex

Let women have their own experience, whatever that may be for them.

Exactly, this is also true for all the men out there advising women too. And that is what I'm saying too- women should seek respect if that is what they feel like, seek being cherished if that is what they feel like. No need to follow a million rules.

Moreover, this was a question and discussion in an open forum. And the question I replied to was NOT addressed to Ernst or anyone in specific. Please don't tell me what I can and cannot say.

Only Ernst gets to censor, if at all he wishes to. I'd leave if that is the case.

Moreover, why are you taking it so personally? i didn't say ALL men, I said majority. Maybe you're in the minority, for all I know? Maybe all the men who come here on an astrology forum, who are presumably a lot more introspective, are also in the minority? But it's possible that the women who come here are encountering men who are immature, because that is the majority.

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astroalex
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@leela LOL! I simply asked you a question about the basis of your observation regarding men. I did not tell you what you can and cannot say.

Please don't act like I stepped on your toes. I am not your enemy. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Alex 

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Leela
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@astroalex 

Everything you said after that seemed directed at that. It is my prerogative to worry about whatever I want to worry about, though I'm not even worrying. I'm sharing. I'm not obligated to share only that which I agree with, to me that is boring.

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astroalex
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@leela Right. Seemed directed at that. I think you read too much into what I wrote. And, of course, that's also your prerogative, I assume. 

And it's my prerogative to assume. And so it goes...

Would you like to give me an answer to my two previous questions?

Alex 

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Leela
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@astroalex 
Are you saying you did not take what I said personally, even a tiny bit- though you backtracked immediately? If not, great, I suppose. 

As to answer your question- Not sure what you mean by "personal", in that context. It's personal in that it is me doing the observing and listening (I have access to a lot of people, it comes my way). It is impersonal in that it's not specifically based on men I've been in a relationship with.

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astroalex
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@leela I really wanted to know where you were coming from with your observation. Because a lot of people say that the majority of men are immature (among other things), but it seems that many of them repeat what they hear from other people in their lives or the media. 

So, thank you for answering, I appreciate it.

Alex  

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Leela
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@astroalex 

No, I'm not saying it based on what other people or media are saying. I listen to people directly, because they talk to me. 

I haven't heard the immature thing anywhere recently. But then again, I don't consume much media. Maybe you were reacting to me because you heard it in the media and you assumed I'm saying it based on that.

 

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astroalex
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@leela Yes, I hear it from the media, which I avoid as much as possible, and I hear it from people around me, mostly women. But sometimes men also. So I question them when I get the chance. I question people and things in my life, that's a part of me.

However, I think we first need to have a better understanding of what a man is and is not. Then we can proceed with our judgements on things like maturity. The same goes for women, of course. These are separate topics, but I'm just saying. 

Alex   

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Leela
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@astroalex 

It's not really a judgement.
But I'm a bit hardcore

When people theorise that "a man must be appreciated for his actions"--- I read that as male insecurity, not as male trait worthy of paying attention to, or catering to. I'm not referring to the action itself, but the need for validation.Similarly for female behaviour too "a woman must be loved for who she is"-- To me that is infantilising. I want to be held up to higher standards by my man- I too want to reach my full potential, not just be babied.  These pointers are fine if it is kept to a minimal. However, the way people keep harping on about it, I don't think they are seeing it as a minimal, I smell an agenda behind it.

I'm quite fair, in that I'm harsh with my assessments both with men and women. But I'd probably take an abrasive tone with both, so it'd be easy to assume i'm some man-hating person. But, that assumption is not my loss, that I'm sure of.

I KNOW some men personally who are not like that- who are mature enough, secure enough to not need constant validation. So I know it is possible. Yet the constant "relationship advise" territory is saying otherwise.  Male actions get them validation from the world already, why is it a woman's job to also do the same? It takes up too much of their mental energy to do so.

Moreover, a woman getting validation or respect for her actions, is also something men read as an act of "Taking away from them", them not getting to "shine"-- even if it has nothing to do with them directly- which isn't fair, as per me.

For example, I met some people recently who said "Girls are too smart these days", and they said it like it's a horrible thing. But they couldn't explain why, except that men/boys look "less smart" in comparison (they all have sons). I have an issue with expecting women/girls to under-perform in life and undersell themselves, just so men can look better in comparison. I've explicitly heard men say such things, especially men who have some influence.

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astroalex
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@leela Now I can say that I understand you a bit better now.

I would say that getting respect is something men simply need in relationships. Not because of insecurity, but because it allows them to measure how well they do, see where they stand. It's just the way it is for all of us who are not hermits living in a cave, meditating all day.

Now, if a man demands respect from others, then yes, he will be seen as being insecure. Because true respect is not something one can control. I don't know if that is what you meant, though.

And the same goes for validation, being loved, cherished, etc.

Alex    

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Leela
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@astroalex 

Posted by: @astroalex

Now, if a man demands respect from others, then yes, he will be seen as being insecure. Because true respect is not something one can control. I don't know if that is what you meant, though.

Not exactly- it's often a more indirect thing. Like some men may not cherish/love a woman, because she gets respect as well (from people, others etc).  A woman receiving respect does not mean she does not respect a man, however that is how men often read it. Which leads women to suppress themselves, just so as to not overshadow the man. I'm talking about indirect games like this. Men know women like to feel loved, and they use it to control their behavior. Which pretty much goes against the "being loved for who you are" anyway. This happens at a societal level too, with relationship advice, parental advice etc.

Moreover, women are more emotional, so there are a lot of feelings underlying all this, especially in the context of relationships. Plus, there are physical differences too, and thus a power dynamic that is going on too.
I think when women aren't respected, they are often taken for granted.  (Maybe it's true for men too, but not sure- you tell me). When women aren't cherished, they are -or feel- used.
I can get on board with the fact that men perhaps don't need to be cherished, because they also don't feel used. So it holds no meaning for them. Historically as well, there is much more precedent for men objectifying women and using them solely for their bodies... which is why being 'cherished' becomes an important factor in choosing a partner, from a woman's perspective.

But just because men don't have any need to be cherished, it does not automatically follow women don't have a need to be respected. IF that were the case, maybe feminism would not even have existed. But it did- and a lot of that is not because men didn't cherish women, it's because they didn't respect them. I don't even think men were evil- I think it barely crossed their mind that women too want to be involved in the making of the world, have a say, want to vote, own property etc. It's because they just took women's continued subservient presence and domestic-work that allowed men to do their 'great things' for granted.
Maybe women need both, and men have to learn to be the bigger person. 

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astroalex
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@leela I can tell you that men certainly can feel taken for granted. Also, many women do use men for resources (for example foodie calls, handy man services, car mechanic services, etc.) and objectify men in terms of their financial and social status. It is probably most apparent on dating apps and sugar daddy websites.

These women may or may not sleep with these men in return. It seems that more often than not women expect that their mere presence around these men is enough of a return. They claim that they put a lot of effort and money, which often comes from said men, to look good and that this should be enough. Some men are okay with that. Then other men are looking for more than just casual sex. So it is a very complicated situation that can be observed.

I can agree that some men could derive benefit from being the bigger person. But they would be wise to asses the potential consequences that come with that in this "dog eat dog" world. So it's not just as simple as that.

It seems very easy for modern western societies at large to put certain expectations on men, like adhering to traditional roles and values. The minute men (usually, but not always) put similar expectations on women, the world stops and name calling begins.

These are my observations.

Alex     

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Leela
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@astroalex

Posted by: @astroalex

I can tell you that men certainly can feel taken for granted.

Yes I thought as much, but preferred to ask rather than assume. So, you can understand and relate when I say that women too feel that- it's not unique to men. 

Posted by: @astroalex

Also, many women do use men for resources (for example foodie calls, handy man services, car mechanic services, etc.) and objectify men in terms of their financial and social status.

But it is a direct outcome of keeping women subservient for millenia, right? If they are not allowed to earn their own resources, they had no other choice. In the grand scheme of things, women have started gathering their own resources very recently. It's still a very new game for them.

However, I see a lot of contradiction among men. Take this thread itself for example. Matthais mocked women who want to pay for dinner themselves, or do their own thing, or take care of their own vehicle and said men will never take them seriously or cherish them as "woman". Now you're saying- if men do these things for women, then women are using them. SO- which is it? From my vantage point it seems like- damned if you do, damned if you don't. So may as well do what one wants.

Moreover if women do these things themselves (or pay for it themselves), it's true that they won't be particularly impressed or dazzled when men do these things for them. But that doesn't mean they don't respect them, though.
But I'm sensing that's what men miss- they miss not being able to "dazzle" a woman easily anymore. Well, that's a natural part of growing, as per me, no way around it.

Posted by: @astroalex

But they would be wise to asses the potential consequences that come with that in this "dog eat dog" world. So it's not just as simple as that.

Of course, that is true for everyone. But if we keep looking at things from that level of suspicion and caution, not much personal growth can be made. It's understandable though.

Oh - personally, I do not wish to get too society specific in this discussion, seeing as I am not from the west (though I reside here now).

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astroalex
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@leela Women have been treated like second class. And yes, there is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" experience for both genders these days.

When I said that women are using men, I meant that men don't get what they want in return for doing things for them. And I said that some men are okay with that. But it's not the majority. For this reason most men feel used and/or taken for granted.

As for the "dazzle" thing, I suppose that is true for some men. Other men see that as approval seeking behaviour.

There has never been a good balance I think, and it seems that it is not going to happen any time soon. The tables are in the process of turning to where men will be put in the position that women have been in. I don't know if this process will be completed, but it is happening.

In the end it's just a matter of knowing what you need and then finding it. If you need to be dazzled, find a man that needs to dazzle you. If you need to be respected as a woman in the world, find the men that have that respect for women. There is something for all of us out there. The question is "Do we know what we truly need?".  

Alex 

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Leela
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@astroalex 

I don't know if women want to be dazzled, maybe some do. It's just something I observe men like to do. Maybe impress is a better word. I don't mean that it has to be a 'flamboyant' thing. Sometimes men like to dazzle with their knowledge too, and that is an understated thing. I think that is where the stereotype and joke of 'mansplaining' comes from.

Posted by: @astroalex

When I said that women are using men, I meant that men don't get what they want in return for doing things for them. And I said that some men are okay with that. But it's not the majority. For this reason most men feel used and/or taken for granted.

It's not as simple as that. I'm not sure if men are entitled to sex, for doing things for women.
Moreover, much is spoken about the emotional side of sex... but sex is also a physically vulnerable space for women. If a guy suddenly goes rogue in bed, there isn't much a woman can do.
I think excessive porn and such easy access to it has completely ruined a lot of young men's minds (women too, though to a slightly lesser extent, and in different ways). A lot of what is normal and connecting isn't exciting to a lot of young men.
I hear a lot of men doing really weird sex-acts with women, often without any sort of consent or sense of boundary. Is accepting a dinner or help with plumbing, and even consenting to sex worth the risk of a guy suddenly wanting to 'choke' or other things? I don't think so. And by consenting to sex, a woman may feel like she has an obligation to say yes to a plethora of other things, even if she doesn't want to. This is where women's porn consumption also influences them- coz they lose touch with their own feelings.
I think that is one reason a lot of women make a man wait for long, because they don't really trust men anymore.

But it seems in general there is not much trust between the sexes at this point of time.

 

Posted by: @astroalex

I don't know if this process will be completed, but it is happening.

I think it is already reversing- unfortunately even in places that never achieved that extent of freedom or equality to begin with.

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astroalex
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@leela I wasn't referring to sex only. A lot of men can't even get a woman to spend some time with them, go somewhere and do something together, outside of the bedroom.

Men can force themselves physically on women. But women can use their sexuality, emotions and words in bad ways. They can weaponize them against men and manipulate them. Women can often escalate potentially violent situations and pit one man against another. Sometimes for no other reason than their own personal entertainment. Women weild a lot more power then some people would like us to believe. It's just different than men's power. Not as direct and physical, but certainly no less damaging.

The term "mansplaining" is pure misandry in my opinion.

I agree 100% on there being a lack of trust between men and women.

Both genders have their rough edges to smooth out. I think our conversation here has turned into a "let's show men's and women's dirty laundry" extravaganza that doesn't contribute much to Stefanie's original topic, nor astrology.  

Alex  

 

 

 

  

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Leela
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@astroalex 

Posted by: @astroalex

A lot of men can't even get a woman to spend some time with them, go somewhere and do something together, outside of the bedroom.

For statements like this, frankly, there is an exact opposite situation as well, depending on the slice of world chosen. So we would just go back and forth.

Posted by: @astroalex

The term "mansplaining" is pure misandry in my opinion.

It happens though. I'm a professional-level musician and lay-men have tried to explain music to me, or have made other demeaning assumptions, like assuming a guy must have done most of the work on my music (not true). Mansplaining just captures that sentiment really well, and makes fun of it. Humour seems like a better way to deal with that than seething. Any misandry in it comes from being shamed to begin with. When we are ridiculed, we also ridicule. Unless you are expecting women to be extremely evolved and perfect in the face of such assumptions, which isn't a realistic expectation, unless they are sitting in a cave meditating 😉

Posted by: @astroalex

But women can use their sexuality, emotions and words in bad ways. They can weaponize them against men and manipulate them

I think we covered things along this line. This is a direct effect of women not have any real power in the world, of keeping them suppressed. Male violence, however, is not really due to women. It's due a lack of control they have over their own nature and energy. Sure, a cunning women may use that, however the two things are not equal.

The more we keep pushing the narrative and idea that women should NOT act, not seek respect, not seek any real independence in the world, the more they will default to using their sexuality and emotions as power. Which is to say, all normal humans want some amount of respect and power to live healthily in the world. If women can't get it in productive ways, they will find it in other ways. Which proves what I was driving at initially.. which is that women too want respect and the power that comes with it. It isn't enough to be cherished like a doll.

This is why I said all the things I said to begin with- that saying women should not seek respect/action is a very unhealthy thing to encourage. Men too will suffer for it, as will the children of those women.. and so on it will continue for generations.

Posted by: @astroalex

I think our conversation here has turned into a "let's show men's and women's dirty laundry"

This conversation came about as you asked me to justify and elaborate my original sentiment. If dirty-laundry is what got revealed in the course of it (by both of us), so be it. Everything adds to the understanding of the topic, if we have the eyes to see it.

Anyway, we can end this now!

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Mattias
(@meyes)
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@leela One can fart in a restaurant if one wants to. But it´s not considered good behaviour.

Dragging in all kinds of personal opionions without relating to the theme is not constructive, and not - to my opinion - respectful. Noone is censoring you Leela. As you say: We can´t.

Also speaking negtively in general terms about the other gender in a discussion like this is bad behaviour. I think.

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Leela
(@leela)
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@meyes 

Most of your examples are also just "personal opinions". Just because 2 people hold that does not make it the truth. 

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Mattias
(@meyes)
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@leela I´m sorry Leela, but there you are wrong. My examples refer to Ernst´s and Pat Allen´s teaching. And they are basically their examples. (Except for the one with the young man in front of the mirror.)

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Mattias
(@meyes)
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@stefanie3004 Not only a woman, but a man as well. I think Pat Allen makes really clear that this is about "most women" and "most men" but it´s really about what end of the stick we identifies with, the masculine and the feminine. And she also makes clear that it often changes as we get older: older women often gets over to the "respect"-end of the stick, while old grandpa typically wants to be cherished.

But why is that we have to choose? Because if you choose to act in a masculine way you leave less room for the other person to cherish you. For example, a man cherish a woman if she pays for the dinner on a date. If she insists on paying for herself - well, then she doesn´t leave any room for that cherishing act of him.

"I can fix my car myself!" Wonderful! With that attitude you are probably going to gain a lot of respect from men and get male friends. But are they going to bring your flowers or in any other way show that they see you as a woman (except for wanting to have sex with you possibly)?  Probably not.

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Mattias
(@meyes)
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@stefanie3004 And the other way round of course! Imagine a man who gets home from the gym and starts to look at himself in the mirror. Imagine him wanting attention from his partner. He wants to be cherished for his muscular body. Maybe he´s going to get that. But respect? I doubt.

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Leela
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@meyes 

But didn't you just read what Ernst wrote and even seemingly appreciate it? Or you just read the words?

What would be wrong in CHERISHING a guy for a moment? What would be wrong in RESPECTING a girl for a moment?

It's demeaning to our existence to FIX these things in a relationship and demand things never change. Boxing everything and everyone up in so many "shoulds", we just end up taking the other person for granted.

I think if I ever had to keep track of so many relationship tips and manuals and "this is what you should or shoulnd't do to make your man happy", I would have gone mad long back 🙂
Maybe everyone is going mad under the weight of SHOULDs.

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Mattias
(@meyes)
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@leela If you had been listening to Ernst or Patricia Allen you would know that neither of them talks about those things as fix. On the contrary! They make very clear that it´s individual and contextual. Pat Allen for example doesn´t say "women", she says "most women" or "the one in the relationship that identifies with the feminine energy" or something like that.

As I said: men want to be cherished too. But mostly when they are older. And yes, respecting a woman in the wrong situation - "out of respect for you I´m not going to pay for your meal" - may be the wrong thing to do. In that situation perhaps she should be cherished. Same thing with men: Telling a young man that he is handsome (especially by an older woman) may make him feel objectified and run away.

And I also said: It depends, to a high degree, on age. Personally I´m 53 and I´m getting to the "cherished"-part of the stick. No black or white here as you try to describe it.

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astroalex
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@meyes I agree. We forget that masculine and feminine are energies that are not bound to gender. Gender is a filter through which these energies are channeled into the material reality. Men channel more of the masculine, and women channel more of the feminine. This gives both genders the opportunity to have a variety of experiences with the yin and yang, as in every person they come in different amount of intensity. That is how I understand it at this point in my life. And there is always a flux between the yin and yang, a constant exchange, an eternal dance.

Alex  

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Leela
(@leela)
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@astroalex 

Posted by: @astroalex

We forget that masculine and feminine are energies that are not bound to gender.

Yes, that is why I said it is silly to have "should's" and a million rules. You're basically saying what I said. Rather, you're ignoring what I said because my abrasive tone leads you to make certain assumptions about me 🙂 You'd be surprised at the reality.

"Should's" just come from our collective memory. If we're just living our memories, we're close to death.

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astroalex
(@astroalex)
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@leela Okay, so we can find a common ground. Not gonna lie, your tone does come across as abrasive and it leads me to making certain assumptions.

So yes, I would love to be surprised at the reality. 🙂  

Alex

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Francesca
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@stefanie3004 

I'm not sure what the context is, but if he said it in the context of relationships I think it's a false dichotomy. I've been in a very happy relationship for the past 14 years in which I am both cherished and respected. I honestly wouldn't settle for less. So please be assured that it is indeed possible ;).

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