Ernst in another post was warning about this position. Saying beware if it's starved. It can very easily become very bad.
I did worry, even though my Sun in 12th Pisces is pretty much delighted. It has though 33 virupas aspect from Saturn, creating Thirst-Ag. It doesn't damage Uccha, Dig or Chesta of the Sun but still I notice the aspect.
So, in certain environments or contexts that I feel as hostile, I'll hide my light in order to protect myself. Belittling myself even. I really wanna be always aware to fight against this habit.
Despite it, I've mostly followed my inspirations along my life. Sometimes wasting time in wrong things, but never lost the flame of my inspirations. However they have never strongly sustain my path. I haven't create my niche in the world. None kingdom been built other than myself. But in the last 10 years or so, yearning for building a beautiful temple. (Jaimini: Jupiter-Sun conjunction).
Also the conjunction of Jupiter is said to moderate expenses, such is my case.
About that ambiguity others had mention: I hear often people talking about me, describing me inaccurately. But I tend to let them believe what they believe. I don't make the effort to bring the image of myself more in accord with what I feel I am.
About my father, there was a few years of distancing in my early youth years, but even then he was always supporting me without any question. Always happy to see me and available. I also have Sat in 4th and Moon in 10th. I've heard this Moon brings the native emotionally towards the father.
Quite many polititians have Sun in 12th. I have little interest in politics, but as a child, in school and high school, I did present myself as student representative and I always won the elections.
To feel safe and in peace I need some free time to be alone. Sometimes I take too much and so I neglect material responsibilities.
@marianela Very appreciated testimony, thank you! Interesting that you have Saturn in the 4th too, just like my client. I guess that your mother was quite a disciplinary force in your life? And Moon in the 10th; for sure, that should make up for the Sun in the 12th I guess.
Staffan
@staffan Yes, my mother was the disciplinarian one, although not too much.
Saturn in 4th, it has taken me years to open up and share about my life.
@marianela That´s another interesting aspect, something to think about in a reading situation.
Staffan
@marianela How do you reconcile Moon in the 10th with wanting to share and be open, but then Saturn in the 4th that wants to hide emotions?
Also God bless you and your Saturn-Moon opposition. I have it too. Not easy!
@curioussoul I don't know how much I understand about it.
On one hand, and as we move (Air) there have been people I've met or new environments that have helped.
In general I assume it's natural to be open and share, but Saturn in 4th makes it a threatening situation. Life on Earth implies visible beings, therefore the law of truth.
I changed a lot in this regard when dance became a daily activiy for me.
As a child and teenager I was very much into sports. Moving the body is always good, but with dance the range of emotional-spiritual experiences for the self enlarges manifoldly as the body physically is transforming itself, opening up and increasing possibilities. (The neurotic tendencies themselves are not disconnected from muscle patterns). So, this daily practice was very good for my Mars (Lagna Lord). Having Mars in 11th it also connected me socially to groups.
I have to say that this daily dancing healed my epilepsy. In about 3-4 years.
So it was about finding a way to express oneself that feels great, allows for free creativity, it's healthy and belonging to a little community.
A place where one can shine, where one is expected to shine, (my dance teacher used to say: to be modest on stage is a crime), while at the same time one can only shine when one is authentic. When one dares to expose oneself (inner life and outer body) where our shadows, our unconscious (12th house) can be symbolically or poetically channeled. Every art form has this filter potency.
A good camp for the Sun in 12th.
My Moon-Sat are in a Maha Parivartana so they can produce good things, but the starvation of Saturn I see it in my extreme difficulty to separate myself from things that are hurting me.
@marianela Very well put -> "Saturn in the 4th makes it a threatening situation." I resonate with you.
I love how you use dance as a healing outlet. Congratulations on healing your epilepsy and through something so fun as dancing.
Totally resonate with that last sentence on the difficulty of separating yourself from things that are hurting you. My Moon is my 7th lord and Saturn is my lagna lord, so this mostly activates with men. There's a strong pull to keep in contact with men I don't feel safe around. I'm running an antardasa that focuses me on healing this. It's been difficult, but lots of progress has been made. Awareness of this unintentional masochism is the first step!
We got this.
@marianela Wow. Thank you so much for sharing this. Our charts relate so much. We have very similar Sun, Moon, and Saturn placements. Different lagna.
What do you mean by this position easily becoming bad? I'm curious! My Saturn is starving Sun to 45 points, but luckily Jupiter is delighting it to 60 points. Same as you, I've always followed my inspirations!
Replying to path sustainability--that's totally okay. Some of us aren't meant to have sustainable or stable paths. 🙂 I tend to look at it as a feature, not a bug. I hope you build that beautiful temple one day.
So interesting how you said Moon in the 10th brings the native emotionally towards the father -- absolutely my case. I've always felt a strong pull towards my father.
Btw @staffan and everyone else, Angelia Jolie has her Sun in the 12th ;). I admire that about her. She has homes overseas and travels there often. I believe not too long ago she ended her Sun dasa and was away from public life during that time.
When I travel, I never think of going to another state. I always think of going across the Atlantic 😍
@curioussoul Thanks for providing yet another example. That would be, in my eyes, another woman with strong masculine energy. You may say that she´s sexy, but what most modern woman don´t seem to realize that heterosexual men tend to choose one type of woman for just bed pleasures, and another for a lasting relationship. In that case, at least when we are younger - up to 52 perhaps - most men shy away from women that come out as masculine, I believe. "Sexy as fcuk" doesn´t help much in that case.
Those are my thoughts... I´m 56 myself and very much subscribe to Pat Allens thoughts, that Ernst tells about, relative to a change in gender roles when the hormones change. A young man would generally not thrive in a relation with a dominating woman, but in my age it´s just fine being in a relation with a woman that has at least as much dominance as you do. "In this how we do what I obey!" A young man can´t usually say that in a trustworthy way, but for a man in my age it´s OK, both socially and between me and me. Not saying that my wife dominates me, but if I´m have a more leading role in the relationship it´s because she wants it that way. And I´m not sure that I have neither; I guess it´s 50/50. But I´d say she has the last word, and that´s for a reason. Even though I have a Jupiter/Ketu conjunction giving me some wisdom, she´s beyond wise. I was very happy being picked up by her after having being single for a few years. My plan as an asperger was to go crashing in some metro somewhere, the day my job as a crossword writer ended. Which it more or less has; on Monday I start my studies to become a natural healer; my wife found the school and suggested that I´d go there...
Staffan
@staffan Yes, she does have strong masculine energy. I think it's because of the Aries dominance, especially the Moon being there. That is her undercurrent.
I agree on what you said about the type of men people choose. Either she's in the "wifey" bucket or "just for fun" bucket. Yes, it seems that women who are predominantly in their masculine energy repel men, and so they naturally see her as the "just for fun" bucket. She may be OK with that, at least in the earlier parts of her life, because masculine women tend to view sex like men do.
I've downloaded some of Pat Allen's audio files, can't wait to find out what she's all about.
It's beautiful to hear about your appreciation for your wife's wisdom. She seems like a gem 🙂
@curioussoul Yes, that´s worth underlining of course: We are not all the same. Maybe, as you say, she´s OK with being singel, and if that´s the case she´s obviously not the only woman on earth being happier that way. And also: even if she´s not it may still be the best option for her, obviously.
Speaking about gems: Pat Allen is another one, for sure. One thing that I´ve learned from her is that we shouldn´t speak about women and men in general terms without, for a starter, take into a account the difference between younger and elder men/women. She really points out the importance of sex hormones.
Staffan
Very simplified and somewhat exaggerated: Men become women and women become men... When they grow older, that is. According to Pat Allen, but the words above are mine, not hers.
Staffan
@curioussoul Actually, what she say - and perhaps this is her most central idea - is that a person who identifies more with her feminine side / typically a woman / if forced to choose between being cherished and being respected / especially by her significant other / she will choose being cherished. But that is at a young age. When the sex hormones diminish she shifts into wanting to be respected. For men it´s the other way round: respect is more important than being cherished when young, while the old man wants the latter.
What modernism and feminism have brought, I believe, is that women now skip the "being cherished" state. She acts in a masculine way and crave respect already when young. We are used to see it as a battle between men and women, but we should rather look at it through an age lense, I believe. It also goes hand in hand with the fact that elder people generally don´t play an important role in modern society - everyone wants to be young! So young modern women crave the prize that in a traditional society goes to the elder women, the grannies - leadership. But that means that they miss a good part of their "being cherished" experience, and come into older age in a vulnerable state. To begin with, they are far more less prone to have a family ready to be led by them. And simp men, that have never had the experience of being respected at a young age, are never going to be respected, nor are they going to be cherished because they are most probably going to be alone. No kids and grandkids around being ready to cherish them and praising them for their deeds at a younger age. Those are my thoughts; the basic concept comes from Pat Allen.
Staffan
@curioussoul Ernst was saying Sun in 12th can become very easily very bad. Beware when it's starved. I know nothing more. @ernst could you explain us a little bit about it?
@suzanstars @curioussoul @nkan @marianela Would you say that domination (in bed) tends to be a theme for the Sun in the 12th? Whether it´s as the dominating or the submissive part. (Of course I don´t expect you to talk about your personal experience Marianela, unless you want to.)
Staffan
@staffan I'm really not sure about this. I feel like it has more to do with the 8th house/Scorpio/Mars energy? Curious to hear other people's thoughts.
@curioussoul The keys would be - i it´s true - Sun for dominance and 12th house for bed pleasure. An example would be Madonna. She has a very masculine energy. But that might be for other reasons, of course. And as said, I guess it could work the other way round too: attracting a dominate partner.
I believe this might be so, but I do not know.
Staffan
@staffan It would be really cool to study this one day. All things related to sexuality!
The keys make sense -- Sun for dominance and 12th house for bed pleasure.
Haha, maybe the Sun's Shad Bala might have to do something with whether they are dominant or submissive. Madonna's Sun seems to be quite high in Shad Bala points! Just thinking out loud!
You also mentioned the age thinking -- women growing more into their masculine side in their 50s. Maybe that plays a role in her being sexually dominant?
What do you think?
@curioussoul I think that she´s presented herself in a quite dominant, masculine way already from a young age, although she tried to play a submissive kind of Marilyn Monroe-role, which I personally found quite awkward since it obviously - to me - wasn´t authentic.
With that said, I found it cute when Madonna politely asked the ABBA guys for permission to use their "Gimme gimme"-loop or how you would call it for Hung up! sending her secretary to Stockholm for that reason. And they, who never accepted anyone sampling anything from their music, gave her permission without any hesitation. Partly because she asked in a respectful way I guess, but also out of admiration for her work, and so they have told. That was nice, from both sides I believe.
/ I´m a sucker for that kind of stories; my Mercury and Sun in the 7th and Uttara Phalguni Moon reveals itself I guess; teamwork motivates me deeply. (Add to that having 6H as my Neptune card in the CoT system... /
Staffan
My friend is a Virgo Rising with Sun and Mercury in the 12th house and Saturn-Moon-Uranus conjunction in her 4th house. She definitely is the most well travelled person I've ever met, she even has the word jet setter in her social media handles haha. She has always had a close relationship with her father and really admires him. Her relationship with her mother is also close, but a little bit more contentious at times as her mother can be a bit neurotic. In recent years, her father has been been facing some health battles, including advanced dementia, so while my friend still loves him unconditionally, she has had to shift into more of a caregiver role for him along with her mother, which has been stressful for her at times, especially when her mother is out of town and my friend has to become her father's sole caregiver. My friend's mother has turned to drinking a lot to cope with the stress of taking care of her husband 24/7, but she is still very capable at the same time of managing being the full-time caregiver to her husband.
I read all the great replies here and decided to look at Sun in the 12th House from Beneath a Vedic Sun to see what it has to say. So I just share what it said which i think you all have mentioned them with your experiences
"The House of the liberation and loss - How I lose myself to the highest in life in order to achieve the greatest freedom and contentment, independent of the variables of day-to-day life. The 12th house is the house of loss, but also loss of the material to gain the spiritual, and thus liberation from neediness. The 12th House is represented by the sign Pisces and the planet Jupiter. The Sun in the 12th house acts like a combination of Sun and Jupiter"
They are interested in leading a spiritual life; balancing spiritual with material growth; achieving liberation or "enlightenment"; doing something charitable and of service to the world; theorizing and engaging in abstraction
They are skilled in traveling or working in foreign locales; managing losses for others; focusing others and oneself on enlightenment, moksha, or self-improvement; good fund-raiser
Favorable Attitudes and Traits: Champions the cause of the underdog; interested in humanitarian efforts; makes advances in spiritual settings, especially in ashrams and monastery environment, works in special health clinics, benefits from work in another country, benefits from solitude; raises money for charitable purposes; advocate for global causes; radiates sensual and spiritual energy
Unfavorable Attitudes and Traits: Take advantage of those who are spiritually vulnerable; works against the best interests of minority groups; causes losses to spiritual or humanitarian efforts; too indulgent in sensual or sexual pursuits; false guru; uses spirituality to get money and sexual attention; gets involved in charitable scandals, spiritual swindler; misappropriates church or temple money; feels their existence is pointless; not much focus for a particular career, too self-sacrificing; loner; not sufficiently drawn to the responsibilities of day-to-day life; wants to escape or withdraw most of the time; wanders around aimlessly
Occupations: Spiritual "expert" or advisor; counselor; specialist in bringing comfort and pleasure to others; sexual instructor or worker; jobs interested in comparative religions and cultures, recluse; yogi; work in institutions devoted to spiritual, charitable and humanitarian purposes, correctional officers, work in ashrams; work in specialized health clinics, fundraiser, does very well with work in foreign countries; bankruptcy advisor; credit counselor; sleep professional
tuyet
I attached a sun in 12th guy’s chart who I came across about five years ago. He tried his hand at farming a few times and each time was a loss. He is secretive but loves attention especially regarding his good looks, very popular with women. He is a naturalist, horticultural type person. We got along pretty well but he has problematic behaviors with women and so my experience with him was short lived. He said his father left his mother, and so she was frustrated with her life and the burden of kids, so she beat him when he was a child. He was very much deep in his head.
@karinia Su/Ve is a bad combination for relationships as you surely know. They are basically looking for their clone, not for their complement.
And Ju/Ra is a severe blemish to me. He might have been "deep" - I guess you mean philosophically minded - but that´s an indication of someone who may sound like a guru, and believe he´s a guru, but who in fact has very little wisdom. A tough one and very difficult to communicate to the person, since they are strongly convinced that their wisdom is the greatest. Auch!
Staffan
Actually I´ve been in touch with a woman today, whose husband has Ju/Ra. He´s one of my closest friend and me and my wife are their kids´godmother/father, so it´s painful to listen to her intents to call him, and him not paying attention nor to her needs. He´s on a "spiritual path" but it´s unfortunately just BS. Very very hard people to reach. Praise yourself for having run away from this man!
Staffan
@staffan he def preached to me a few times and being me I just ignored him lol. He did inspire me though, especially his attitude towards plants and animals. His ak is sun as well. But yeah he clearly had issues and he wanted a woman to save him.