Posted by: @nickmichie23So I'd be really interested to hear some of your stories about using the Tropical Zodiac.
The zodiac question used to bug me greatly, that is how I even stumbled onto Ernst' site, way back (due to his essay). It convinced me enough to temporarily suspend the question, so I could proceed studying further, otherwise I was getting stuck.
This year has had me coming back to the question of the zodiac. I've been looking at it conceptually, from the angle of astronomy and math...tbh the tropical zodiac seems off to me from the perspective of a horoscope. Unfortunately, the math is probably not accurate enough to make perfect non-tropical calculations yet. But, I don't want to fight and this is taboo topic lol, so, moving on.
Posted by: @nickmichie23
Have many of you found it much more accurate? Has anyone not had so much success? What is your experience?
In general, I haven't found either Lahiri or Tropical interpretations to be fully accurate for my own chart. Both are somewhat correct (and by extension also incorrect), but no clear resonance. This is not just based on my own interpretation/understanding but also readings I had from others who were more experienced than I was when I took those readings.
At first impression, Tropical seemed better (the Asc and Sun, especially)
However, getting into Lajjitadi Avasthas has me doubting the veracity of Tropical. In my own chart, the Rahu/Ketu signs do not change and that leads to changes in avasthas of planets in the two versions. My truthful experience is that the tropical version doesn't resonate with me that much.
Sidereal with a different Ayanamsha (not Lahiri or Fagan Bradley) is working out better for me as of now. Both for my own chart, and for some free readings that I did for others + celebrity charts. Let's see, that is still a nascent experiment.
I had 3 readings from the Ernst-recommended list who follow his methods. On their own they did not get much about me right, but they rationalised after I voluntarily mentioned some things... but then that's not very satisfying. That's one issue with this whole matter of trying to "prove", it's easy to explain after a fact is known, but that can be easily done with either sidereal or tropical chart.
But since I do study astrology myself- I understand why those astrologers weren't able to get much right (so I'm not blaming them). One way I reconcile this is by thinking there is a sense of our Self that operates outside of the chart, and the consciousness of the chart (or moment of birth) is merely an imprint on that innate seed. So there is some truth to any chart, but it's only a partial truth. Perhaps, the more attuned we are to our true Self, the less the chart operates as a 'default' (though it still throws obstacles and so has a say on our overall fate). But it's only a theory, and doesn't help us solve the question of zodiac, Lol.
Posted by: @scott-m-19I think the most effective way to study this is to learn predictive techniques for very concrete material things like children, how big a house, color of car ect.
But..even if we take material facts, the issue is not the material thing itself but how we justify/interpret it using a chart, isn't it. I mean, predictions aren't really a cookie-cutter thing...there are so many tools and techniques, and there is an art to using it, as multiple factors can be used to point to the same thing. Once the material fact/event is known, it's not that hard to to justify the existence or lack of it in- dare I say- any zodiac-chart. Assuming the astrologer is intelligent and intuitive enough.
Just to see why you exploring so many different ways to see your chart and yet not satisfied with anything.
You can email me too
@amit
I cannot take others' word solely on faith on a permanent basis. I have to explore things myself to reach a place of genuine knowledge with the thing. Otherwise, it's fake. So, I explore. It's not just about my chart, but astrology as a whole. Obviously, wanting to understand myself and my chart was the starting point.
The more I understand astrology itself, the less my chart resonates with me. Why should I be satisfied if something doesn't resonate properly? 🙂
Anyway, it actually works for me to see astrology as a partial truth, which is a good tool for understanding and healing. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not who I am, but it is certainly something I can use, if need be.
//Also, I never actually went to a Lahiri astrologer, but that is the 'default' Indians operate in, much like Tropical is the western 'default', isn't it? Plus I do come from a family that tends to have an astrological awareness (even if nothing more) and as of 2 generations ago, most would even know the basics of drawing up a chart.
However my mom has gone to some professional astrologers and shown them my chart many years ago though I never asked for it (rude!), so I (unfortunately?) have had a lot of astrologically-drawn info thrown at me, even before I was actively seeking it.
Plus, one of my relatives was an avid astrologer and he'd sometimes do write ups for the extended family and many others. This wasn't his profession- but he was actually a rare good astrologer, good combo of psychology and prediction. he even predicted his own death accurately (89), which he wrote somewhere. His wife found it after his death, written in one of the countless journals in which he kept writing about astrological matters).//
Thanks for the offer to look at my chart. If you want to engage with what I wrote and want my explanation for saying it, I don't mind. However, my personal chart reasons for why I may be saying things here (or not) is irrelevant to what I've actually written. I mean, we could do that with anyone, you know? I can look at Ernst's chart and pin-point to his chart for why he holds certain beliefs and says certain things (and I do in my own head, tbh)- but discussing a person while avoiding their content/ideas is to me in bad taste. And perhaps, I should respect myself the same way. No offence 🙂
Hi Leela
I didn't mean it that way. There is lot of stuff to look into vargas to see as they are interconnected. I just spoke from the perspective of using the doubts as learning opportunity.
Anyways, we can discuss it this way if that's fine with you. What's it that you think doesn't resonate with you in tropical chart and with what technique you using to determine that? So you can post that varga screenshot itself and say this is off. That can result in a meaningful and learning discussion.
What has been your experience with Sidereal readings?
Kind off the zodiac topic -
My first reading was with a sidereal vedic astrologer and he was very simple, mostly intuitive. It was amazing. But he read me, as I was then, in the moment. Spoke to my core. I will always remember it. The chart is the chart, but the person is the person.
He gave a 2.5 hour reading but probably spoke about maybe 5 or 6 things in my whole chart. He is almost entirely a counselor that utilizes the horoscope. Not predictive based. But it was really what was meant to happen. Like how Ernst had that amazing first reading with a Western astrologer. He has said that was his best reading he has received. He also said he received a reading from a top notch sidereal vedic astrologer from India at a conference but said it really wasn't that good. Just wasn't meant to be.
I think a real genuine reading is something that can't be forced. It has a sort of magical component to it.
Just working my way through this Vic Dicara playlist all about tropical/sidereal.
(99) The Tropical Zodiac in Vedic Astrology, with Vic DiCara - YouTube
Does anyone know any good tropical astrologers that still do readings? It seems that most of the big ones don't really give readings any more. Seems a shame.
This matter of sidereal vs tropical astrology is very very tricky for a few reasons:
1. When we deal with subjective matters we are not dealing with truth 99% of the time. What I mean by this is that people are so full of ideas of who they are, who they should be, whats important to them, and its all BS. Much of it is not who they are AT ALL. Over a lifetime if we look at their lives and we look at how they think of themselves and how they potray themselves, these are very different pictures. So when a person looks at a zodiac and says its more like me, is it the REAL me, or the me that they created an image of, a mask, that actually does not hold up in life. One of the most amazing things to me about my journey in astrology has been to watch this happen in my life. To see something in my chart and think, YES, that's ME. And then to to through years of transformative experiences and see, wow, I didn't read that right (whether through wrong zodiac or simply wrong application of a technique ), that wasn't me, I am actually this. Now at 51 I look at my laugh and I just laugh. I laugh at what I though I was at 19, as I find out what indeed I am was something that I never thought of growing up to be. See, the thing we are, we don't think about that, its the things we are not that we think about all the time! ANd then we look for the chart to explain to us what we are not but what we think we are and then sidereal dont work, tropical dont work, nothing works GOOD enough. So, the truth of a zodiac emerges to ones view only as the truth of ourselves emerges, otherwise there is just confusion. And even when others look at us subjectively, its all based on our mask, our portrayal of what we are not. How bad is this portrayal? THe disruption of energy that occurs when we portray instead of life as we really are is the most responsible part of disease, and how many sickness do we have in the world. That will give you a picture of this. NO WONDER we can't make up our minds about the zodiac! The people who are most adamantly attached to the wrong zodiac, they are the ones who are the most lost with respect to themselves and that is why they have to PUSH their zodiac onto others because its an act of personal validation of who they are not and so it comes with frustration.
2. When we deal with the concrete, birth time is EVERYTHING. 4 seconds changes the results of your life with respect to concrete events. When predictions are made, they are using astrology that is not scientific enough to be accurate without intuition. Look at the hands of the predictive astrologers that have the most fun with it and who are the best of it, they have intuitive fingers, not intellectual fingers. Its up to us with the intellectual fingers to improve the techniques of astrology cause to the intuitive astrologer they think the techniques they use actually work. One famous predictive astrologer owns me 5,000 because they had a technique they swore was 90% accurate and they asked us to program it for them. We did, it never worked. It gave 50% results on a simple question with 2 options. There was no technique there, but they were predicting these things regularly in their practice. They said, its not working, and since i can't sell the report, I can't pay you.
The last 4 years I have been working on a predictive technique that pulls all of Parashara principles into one package of high accuracy. Its very exciting, uses ALL the vargas for EVERY prediction because I have seen so often with my twins born a minute apart how different the events of their lives are and its only explained by looking at ALL vargas for EVERY prediction. It sounds overwhelming, I know, but its not, ITS SO SIMPLE. Its the most simple clear method I have worked on. However, I have some road blocks that are making the techique give good results but not perfect results as of now: One is the birth time, the other is the Vimshottari Dasa as there are several factors that change vimshottari dasa: 4 options for year lengths, three options for nakshatra calculation, and 2 options for vimshottari, so that's 24 permutations, and that's for each ayanamsa and there are more ayanamsas than there are good predictive astrologers, haha. Every important event one of my twins has that the other does not, which means EVERY event cause they never have events of importance that are the same or on the same day, helps me get a little closer to overcoming the hurdles.
3. When we deal with the concrete, the techniques are in such bad shape that its so hard to make a prediction that its very difficult to test with concrete as well. So, how can we test our calculations when our techniques need work and how can we improve our techniques when the calculations are not trustworthy? That's what you call a bad relationship. Like when you are in love and one person needs something from you and you can't give it because they are not giving you something you need and they cant give it because you can't give them what they need. The nonworking-relationship circle. A catch 22. The only cure, is comiting and and taking the time needed for the insights to come that allow the problem to be solved.
4. And finally, the final reason that we struggle with determining the correct zodiac is that maybe neither sidereal or tropical is correct, at least in their presentation. That's a harsh statement, but its one that every researcher has to consider. Lets think about this, there is no mention of a useable zodiac of Aries, taurus, etc. in Indian literature written in the BC ages. Jaimini is 300-600 years before that and it mentions rasis and when he calls the rasis as aries, he says, if I say aries, ignore it, I dont mean aries, I mean a number that is the rasi from 1-12. Why does he put aries, taurus, etc. down like that? What does he have against aries, taurus, etc? So while jaimini does mention aries, etc. he does not do so as USABLE names.
There is a 12 fold division of the ecliptic that is tropical mentioned in the rig veda, but no names attached to the divisions. The earliest names of the 12 divisions are the Adityas. These are twelve solar gods that rule the solar months of the year. Aditi is their mother. Aditi is the infinite, the boundless, the undivided. The Adityas are what is there when we break Aditi up, so I see Aditi as the ecliptic of which the Adityas, her children, are the solar months. The 12 adityas have a lot of symbolism attached to them. They each have beings who accompany them during their monthly sojourn each year. These beings are a rishi, a snake, a Rakshasa, a gandharva, etc. which provide the symbolism for the month. The first aditya rules the first month of spring, which is from about feb 21-march 21, with the second month of spring being march 21 to april 21. I am in the process of digging up information all all these beings that accompany the adityas in order to flesh out the symbolism of of this rasi symbolism which is the oldest found in India, long before the names of Aries, taurus, etc. existed in India. its a tropical division, no chance of it having to do with sidereal, and there may be a lot of symbolism in these Adityas that without, the tropical zodiac is being misrepresented and thus not to everyone's satisfaction.
This is not a time in astrology for those who seek instant gratification in perfection - to much work needs to be done. Its a time for researchers who enjoy the challenge - those will be the happy astrologers. And those intuitives, they are always happy astrologers. I really hate how easy it is for them to be happy with astrology! BV raman used to say, if you want to make good predictions with astrology, MEDITATE. Its true, with all the issues we have to sort out with astrology, developing your intuition is the fastest way to predict well. Learning the best techniques available, that will help point your intuition closer to the mark, but until we can predict two twin's different lives accurately in a mechanical fashion without intuition, we still have work to do on our techniques.
The other things to remember is that there is NOTHING on this earth that is about perfection. NOTHING. Its all about getting to the next step. That's ALL. So if astrology with this or that zodiac, this or that technique, helps you get to the next step, then it served its purpose. Its all about taking the next step. We need to gain the insights we need for that next step. However we get it, it does not matter. For some reason, all of us, are here because we can get that next step with astrology. There may be a time when we won't get the next step from astrology and then we need to leave astrology and do whatever it is that is going to get us to the next step.
Thank you for this elaborate post.
I agree with you on many things you've written.
You are a researcher and a teacher, and so I know you have to do a balancing act of presenting confidence in a zodiac and technique so others can practice, at the same time doing your research in the background with the knowledge that more will be known in the future that could contradict your previous stance. I approach things that way too, though I can't present the same confidence in a zodiac as you do, as long as I know that perhaps neither is correct as of now. Plus, I'm less experienced than you.
When we deal with the concrete, the techniques are in such bad shape that its so hard to make a prediction that its very difficult to test with concrete as well. So, how can we test our calculations when our techniques need work and how can we improve our techniques when the calculations are not trustworthy?
Yes exactly. This is what I meant/wrote too. Technique and calculations are dependant on each other, and proving a technique does not unequivocally prove the veracity of a particular zodiacal calculation, nor vice versa.
Anyway, to me it seems like we have to keep fine-tuning the process over time, going back and forth, till an answer emerges from it. I know that adding to the repository of knowledge is a process spanning a very long time, perhaps more than an individual's life.
Anyway, I find it problematic if someone says I MUST accept a particular zodiac though, as if there is no shred of doubt in the matter anymore. And I have seen way too many western tropical astrologers who are extremely attached and dogmatic about tropical zodiac. Dogma that is cloaked with intellect is still dogma. At the same time they comment on the dogmatic approach of Indian sidereal astrologers. It's irritating, and baffling that they do not see their own hypocrisy.
I too think that the zodiac in how we use could be wrong, though I wrote that less emphatically in my post.
I am not saying there is no tropical circle (many Indian panchangams do use it too though not all). But I don't think it is what we think it is (with our current interpretations and understanding), and I have significant doubts on whether it should be used for a chart.
It's interesting to see the Adityas mentioned a couple of times on this forum by you and others, it was something that came up in my radar too. Curious what will come forth from it!
And oh, it's certainly not about instant gratification. That is not what I meant by saying calculations aren't perfected yet.
But I do think we need to be honest that techniques aren't perfected yet, while still working to perfect it. That means there is some leeway while swimming in the forbidden subjective seas. So if an astrologer does readings, at this point of time, they do need a decent intuition if they want to be helpful to a client. Otherwise they're going to wreak havoc and confusion in the client (and I think it is a disservice to the science of astrology to have the mindset that every client gets exactly what they deserve in the form of their chosen astrologer)
God blessed you with a twin for helping deeper investigation in astrology. That's a blessing for all learning from you.
All the finer details start lining up in higher vargas where I believe people pay the least attention.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge
The Parashara predictive work sounds really exciting!
I love how you have twins...so perfect for your studies! My favorite part is that you got the birth times to the second during what would be an intense/sacred experience for most people (child birth!!). ???? ????
Very interesting and thought-provoking Ernst.
But I am surprised you are still spending so much time and energy on more and more detailed, precise, concrete predictions these current days, considering how you feel about the questionable value of predictive-oriented astrology for most typical civilian public astrology clients.
No offense though. I don't want to try to draw conclusions or judge.
But all that exalted intelligence in the secretive 8th house, which also involves the lagna/Ketu lord. And then a Mula Moon...
Lol, Who are you working for? ???? ????
What is the plan and vision, other than "the study of astrology", that you, or more concerningly, someone who is not as sattvic as you are, may have? What of other folks who may be precociously interested in your advanced prediction technology for some other reasons, be they "well-meaning" or not.
Whose hands is this new supercomputer prediction-generating program you've been hinting at really going to end up in behind the scenes? Hands you may not have intended them for? Or if you did, that you might later regret and then have no control over anymore?
A fortunate blessing of those astrologers who have developed astounding predictive abilities, but are still using the "wrong" zodiac in India, is that by meditating, praying, being close to a guru, and developing raw intuition for their accuracy, they have simultaneously developed at least enough sattvic qualities to have a built-in spiritual protective measure that can help modify how and when they use and receive that knowledge (as elitist as that may sound). Though a few of them may misuse or misdirect those siddhis, in general I would guess that they are more likely to be guided by their inner voice than people who solely use only their left brain logic to cynically operate in the world, and then are handed a pre-created prediction machine.
If a bunch of insecure and conniving secular leaders (national, corporate, financial, global, social, or pirate/rogue/criminal leaders, etc.), hackers, and powerful delusional idealist innovators who believe a technological utopia is just around the corner and can solve everything, etc. ie those who are all entrenched in the secular world of paranoia, envy, consumerism, competition, jealousy, greed, fear, and a need for ever-increasing power and control and fake security, have a miraculous program... an AI predictive machine just handed to them - one that does all the work for them - work based on knowledge that takes years or decades of study to learn, or years or decades to even deserve to learn, that was kept secret for many reasons (some of those reasons are still valid today, not just in the Kali Yuga), what trends may come from that? What unintended consequences?
It already takes a great IQ like yours to tackle those astrological disciplines, but studying them, as you have, can actually help grow the IQ even further and awaken the inner voice. Hence;
"This is not a time in astrology for those who seek instant gratification in perfection"
True. But for good or ill, it has become golden age for those who seek instant gratification in technology. And smart technology and AI is not only becoming everything now, it also is also connecting everything and everyone. However, not only are the immune systems of the general population weakening, IQs are also getting lower and lower, as are empathy levels (more disturbingly) and social and emotional intelligence.
But there are always a handful of people who keep getting more and more clever and manipulative, inner voice or not. More and more we keep trusting algorithms designed by elite hipster savants, who work long relentless hours pumped up on experimental grey-market nootropics and smart drugs and employed by big-tech in the prime of their youth, to make predictions, profiles, sales, and even moral judgments that, in the right hands, can supposedly "protect" us. Those data collectors, and the AI that uses algorithms to make predictions on citizens and consumers, depend on us not using our inner voice and our 25%. If we keep setting off red flags by repeatedly using our inner voice and "free will", will there eventually become a time where we will be seen as a threat to be killed off ? Possibly a bit far-fetched for now ????
But does AI or a software program have an "inner voice" of its own? Even if it is an advanced Jyotish software program? So what happens if a population of humans who have lost their own inner voice depend on that technology for knowing reality, and apprehending it, or even creating or freezing it?
Do we want "Consulting the Gods" to be replaced by "Consulting AI" in astrological prediction and be made easy for everyone, including those who may not have an inner voice or who have not studied the greater philosophy of "Astrology and How to Live" type stuff?
You've worked your ass off for years for the knowledge and ability you now have and teach. I hope you are careful about who all it is packaged and made easier for, and who it may end up being sold out to.
I'm scared.
P.S. I meant all of this in a slightly more light-hearted and rhetorical way than it may seem. Wasn't meant to be as presumptuously disapproving as it sounds. Everyone can feel free to ignore it.
S.
Dear @ernst
This is a truly amazing explanation. Thank you. lets just hope when time comes up for leaving Jyotish for the next step we can truly do it.
I would like to share an experience about your first point.
As you may know I had my first vedic astrology course about 25 years ago and have studied astrology professionally for 19 years. Even though I have started studying with you for a few years, being used to Sidereal Zodiac, it took me some time to switch to tropical zodiac, less than a year ago.
Mean while I have been in a psychological group therapy for 13 years with the focus of leaving our surface feelings and individualization, towards more subtle states. With the help of our instructor, this process has brought me close to understanding very subtle psychological states of my self and a few other individuals.
Through the whole process I was matching what was happening with us to our birth charts with little success. It was through this process that I found out what i have been taught is not working at all. This brought me to you about 3 years ago.
Your teachings were a great break through. They were much more deeper and matched our psychology much better. but something was still blurry.
Switching to the tropical Zodiac was like focusing a camera. What seemed so blurry became so clear. This was not just my experience but also our psychological instructor who was always encouraging me to understand and explain what was happening astrologically. Using your teachings with Tropical Zodiac, My interpretations matched the deepest understanding of our psychology perfectly. Even I couldn't believe how accurate they are. I have never felt and seen such an accuracy in any other school of jyotish.
For example using the tropical zodiac the effect of house rulership as per your teachings in the Rashi Sutras makes sence and matches the psychology of each birth chart perfectly. It's not just an OK Match, No! it is it! word for word,syllable to syllable it is the Native on a very deep psychological state. A state usually individuals don't feel themselves.
At this point there is no dout in my mind that tropical zodiac is perfect for this state of psychological analysis.
Thank you.
Dear All
Dear @ernst
Please also check my post about my experience with Prashna and tropical Zodiac:
https://astrology-videos.com/forum/prashna/parivartana-and-tropical-zodiac#post-6925
If someone says your Lagna based on thumb print then that's ridiculous.
I've read this is possible, though irritatingly, I haven't been able to find out how. There is an entire branch of palmistry that deals with all this (astropalmistry). They can even do rectifications based on that, or so they say.
@leela Yes, there are books on it but they are very poorly done. There is also a lot of controversies in palmistry to be sorted out as well...
@ernst
Thank you so much for taking the time to write such an elaborate and long post ???? ???? ????
The other things to remember is that there is NOTHING on this earth that is about perfection. NOTHING. Its all about getting to the next step. That's ALL. So if astrology with this or that zodiac, this or that technique, helps you get to the next step, then it served its purpose. Its all about taking the next step. We need to gain the insights we need for that next step. However we get it, it does not matter. For some reason, all of us, are here because we can get that next step with astrology. There may be a time when we won't get the next step from astrology and then we need to leave astrology and do whatever it is that is going to get us to the next step.
That is true.
I like your articulation of the "next step".